Why are shooting events still sexist?

[Guest]

Just wondering?

If women were allowed in mens events, would men have to be allowed in women's events?

Personally if Anika Sorrenson can enter a PGA tournament, then women should be able to enter male shooting evens.

Then again, she went back to the WPGA.

[xeye]

I said smart, not high IQ. And I never claimed that being either smart or high IQ makes one "ipso facto" a better teacher, though I think the papers I cited make clear that I'm not the only one who thinks there might be a correlation. But since you seem to believe differently, and it's a point that's of more interest to you than me, why don't you do your own research and get back to us.[/quote]

You said..., "the fact that smart women have other choices today is arguably the single biggest reason for the decline in the quality of public education in the US since 1950s.)"

You are the one who offered citations. So far you have quoted people who OPINE. You have not quoted research.

The reason I am not looking is because I do not believe respectable research to support your statement exists but, I will ask around.

[Nicole Hamilton]

So far you have quoted people who OPINE. You have not quoted research.

Actually READ the second citation I gave and you will see this is not true. Beyond that, what can I say? Some arguments aren't worth having. Believe whatever you like.

[xeye]

[ Believe whatever you like.[/quote]


Thank you I will cherish the free will and intellectual diversity you have granted.

[Bill Poole]

[RobStubbs]

And we're back to bashing European men, thanks for that randy8745.

Why does america hate European men?

To be fair it's only some americans but lets not get paranoid - he said 'European or Arab men' - so that's only half the worlds population he's upset.

Rob.

[that British girl again]

And we're back to bashing European men, thanks for that randy8745.

Why does america hate European men?

To be fair it's only some americans but lets not get paranoid - he said 'European or Arab men' - so that's only half the worlds population he's upset.

Rob.

To be fair, "only some americans" generalise about European men, so why shouldn't I generalise about americans? We've given them ample opportunity to stop generalising, and still they haven't.

I gave my opinion on the matter of my fellow (European) countrymen several pages back, and was ignored on the basis that it was only an opinion. Yes, I can understand that opinion is not fact and should never be taken as such - but my opinion, based on having lived in Europe my entire life, was being ignored in the favour of opinions put forward by americans.

But of course (america bashing comment alert), americans are always right.

[cdf]

Nicole , you have an undeniable talent for opening up cans of woop ass ! You were the little girl who played with sticks and wasp's nests ?

Chris

[Richard H]

And we're back to bashing European men, thanks for that randy8745.

Why does america hate European men?

To be fair it's only some americans but lets not get paranoid - he said 'European or Arab men' - so that's only half the worlds population he's upset.

Rob.

To be fair, "only some americans" generalise about European men, so why shouldn't I generalise about americans? We've given them ample opportunity to stop generalising, and still they haven't.

I gave my opinion on the matter of my fellow (European) countrymen several pages back, and was ignored on the basis that it was only an opinion. Yes, I can understand that opinion is not fact and should never be taken as such - but my opinion, based on having lived in Europe my entire life, was being ignored in the favour of opinions put forward by americans.

But of course (america bashing comment alert), americans are always right.

Where do you get " America Hates European Men"? Just because someone says that they are responsible for something that people disagree with doesn't mean they are hated. I disagree with you but I don't hate you, I don't even know you. People like to use the terms hate, sexism and racism to silence debate. If people can't discuss issues without resorting to name calling they shouldn't take part in the debate.

No you defended your fellow British countrymen who they themselves don't represent all European men (so just like everyone else you too make sweeping generalizations). Like I said earlier England (as is most of Western Europe) is very liberal just like North America towards women. The other point that you can't seem to get around is your defence is for the men of today, the shooting sports were separated in the 70's, which was a very different time.

The ISSF is controlled by Europe, your can protest this as much as you like, I've shown you the facts. So the only way to get the events together again is to have a majority of European member federations to accept it.

This is no judgement on the fact that the ISSF is controlled by European countries as personally I think it is quite reasonable as that is where the sport is most popular. But when you control something you get to take credit for the good and responsiblity for the bad.

[Guest]

Where do you get " America Hates European Men"? Just because someone says that they are responsible for something that people disagree with doesn't mean they are hated.

Fair enough. Is the re-phrasing "why does america think that all European men are chauvanists?" better?

No you defended your fellow British countrymen who they themselves don't represent all European men (so just like everyone else you too make sweeping generalizations).

To disprove the argument that European men are chauvanistic, I do not need to generalise, I only need to prove that some European men are not chauvanistic. I agree that I have not proved this, merely provided my opinion, based on my knowledge of British (therefore European) men.

The other point that you can't seem to get around is your defence is for the men of today, the shooting sports were separated in the 70's, which was a very different time.

And trust me, there are still plenty of relics from the 70s around. They make up a large percentage of shooting clubs and, unless you belong to a university shooting club, they cannot be avoided.

The ISSF is controlled by Europe, your can protest this as much as you like, I've shown you the facts. So the only way to get the events together again is to have a majority of European member federations to accept it.

Assuming for any continent to have control of the ISSF then they must have at least 50%...

The breakdown of member associations is:
Americas 38
Europe 55
Asia 40
Africa 17
Oceania 5

So Europe: 36%
everyone else : 64%
36% < 50%
Therefore on the precept that for control Europe would need at least 50%, Europe do not have control.

[xeye]

I was wondering.....

The Birka clad are allowed to shoot but not drive?

Also, would those countries not allowing women to be out and about without male family members allow them to travel to intl events and stand on the line next to men?

[xeye]

I was wondering.....

The Birka clad are allowed to shoot but not drive?

Also, would those countries not allowing women to be out and about without male family members allow them to travel to intl events and stand on the line next to men?

[Richard H]

Where do you get " America Hates European Men"? Just because someone says that they are responsible for something that people disagree with doesn't mean they are hated.

Fair enough. Is the re-phrasing "why does america think that all European men are chauvanists?" better?

No you defended your fellow British countrymen who they themselves don't represent all European men (so just like everyone else you too make sweeping generalizations).

To disprove the argument that European men are chauvanistic, I do not need to generalise, I only need to prove that some European men are not chauvanistic. I agree that I have not proved this, merely provided my opinion, based on my knowledge of British (therefore European) men.

The other point that you can't seem to get around is your defence is for the men of today, the shooting sports were separated in the 70's, which was a very different time.

And trust me, there are still plenty of relics from the 70s around. They make up a large percentage of shooting clubs and, unless you belong to a university shooting club, they cannot be avoided.

The ISSF is controlled by Europe, your can protest this as much as you like, I've shown you the facts. So the only way to get the events together again is to have a majority of European member federations to accept it.

Assuming for any continent to have control of the ISSF then they must have at least 50%...

The breakdown of member associations is:
Americas 38
Europe 55
Asia 40
Africa 17
Oceania 5

So Europe: 36%
everyone else : 64%
36% < 50%
Therefore on the precept that for control Europe would need at least 50%, Europe do not have control.

To control the agenda you do not need more than 50%. There are lots of companies around that can explain that to you. A single share holder that had a block of 36% of the votes would have considerable power on the direction of a company. North America has 3 votes so how much power do they have ( that's 1.9%)? You actually just need a disproportionate number with a like mind to control an organization. Look at the executive which sets the agenda it vastly populated with Europeans (one North American). Asia is the next largest block which contains many countries that aren't know for there wonderful treatment of women.

Not in any post that I have written or have read (try actually reading what people write and not interjecting your own thought into their words) does anyone state that "all Eurpoean men are chauvanists". There are many pig headed knuckle dragging men in North America. The problem you find hard to grasp is that the people who made the rules in the 70's (not the ones you know now) may have been chauvanists. You can protest all you want but the preception and accepted common knowledge in North America is that the Europeans (those who controlled the sport) did not want to compete with women. I hate to tell you preception is reality and not one of you have presented anything that cast any doubt on that preception. Saying that the people you know and shoot with aren't chauvanists really doesn't amount to a hill of beans, as they weren't and aren't the ones voting one the rule changes. If the Europeans are so into equality for women why aren't they taking their 36% of the votes along with the 3 votes from North America and changing the rules? Look at the timing of the rule change Margret Murrdock ties Lanny Bassham for the gold and gets the silver on count back in 1976. Then the rules change to separate the sexes. The other problem is that if just separating them wasn't enough they offer women fewer events to compete in.

Personally I don't really beleive in equality, no matter what men and women. Pretending that they are the same is really a joke. Women and men have different needs, wants and desires in life and to ignore that is a disservice to both genders. I do beleive in fairness and the system today is just not fair, I beleive when a women does the same job as a man they should get exactly the same amount of money. I beleive any women who can perform the required tasks for a job should have the same opportunity as a man to have that job. I don't think there should be different standards for men and women, I think the standards should actually reflect what is required for the job. Until someone shows me a true scientific study that has undergone peer review I see no physical reason for them not to compete shoulder to should with the men.

Why not have a vote amoungst women as to whether or not they wnat to join the men or not? Then at least if the women choose to keep things the way they are it's by their own decision not that of a gruop of men whose motives could be held as suspect.

[RobStubbs]

The ISSF is controlled by Europe, your can protest this as much as you like, I've shown you the facts. So the only way to get the events together again is to have a majority of European member federations to accept it.

This is no judgement on the fact that the ISSF is controlled by European countries as personally I think it is quite reasonable as that is where the sport is most popular. But when you control something you get to take credit for the good and responsiblity for the bad.

Apologies but <yawn...> USAS is totally American and won't let women shoot in the 'mens' events. So lets forget the ISSF for now. When you sort out your own competitons so they are gender neutral then you can start sorting out the world. You can of course ask your ISSF representatives to bring up the issue for you - has anyone here actually done or are we all just happy to moan amongst ourselves ?

Rob.

[Another Guest]

If the Europeans are so into equality for women why aren't they taking their 36% of the votes along with the 3 votes from North America and changing the rules? Look at the timing of the rule change Margret Murrdock ties Lanny Bassham for the gold and gets the silver on count back in 1976. Then the rules change to separate the sexes. The other problem is that if just separating them wasn't enough they offer women fewer events to compete in.

Personally I don't really beleive in equality, no matter what men and women. Pretending that they are the same is really a joke. Women and men have different needs, wants and desires in life and to ignore that is a disservice to both genders. I do beleive in fairness and the system today is just not fair, I beleive when a women does the same job as a man they should get exactly the same amount of money. I beleive any women who can perform the required tasks for a job should have the same opportunity as a man to have that job. I don't think there should be different standards for men and women, I think the standards should actually reflect what is required for the job. Until someone shows me a true scientific study that has undergone peer review I see no physical reason for them not to compete shoulder to should with the men.
.

Thanks for another intriguing and lengthy lecture – you seem very passionate about the subject. Have you considered actually getting involved through your own National Governing body with perhaps a long-term vision of getting yourself or someone with similar views on the ISSF executive committee?

[Richard H]

The ISSF is controlled by Europe, your can protest this as much as you like, I've shown you the facts. So the only way to get the events together again is to have a majority of European member federations to accept it.

This is no judgement on the fact that the ISSF is controlled by European countries as personally I think it is quite reasonable as that is where the sport is most popular. But when you control something you get to take credit for the good and responsiblity for the bad.

Apologies but <yawn...> USAS is totally American and won't let women shoot in the 'mens' events. So lets forget the ISSF for now. When you sort out your own competitons so they are gender neutral then you can start sorting out the world. You can of course ask your ISSF representatives to bring up the issue for you - has anyone here actually done or are we all just happy to moan amongst ourselves ?

Rob.

Actually the USAS are't my competitions if you look I'm in Ontario Canada where the women are free to shoot free pistol, in everything but the National team trial (which makes sense as the can't compete internationaly so there is no use getting a team spot in FP).

The only thing is that USAS uses the ISSF as justification for their stance on the matter.

Here is a question does it actually state anywhere in the ISSF rules that you have to be a man to shoot FP?

[John J]

[quote="Richard H]
Here is a question does it actually state anywhere in the ISSF rules that you have to be a man to shoot FP?[/quote]

I have a better idea -- why don't you, as the espoused opinionated expert, tell us the answer to that question and your action plan to get it fixed -- if it's such a big problem. Or are you simply content to whine about ad nausea?

[Richard H]

I have a better idea -- why don't you, as the espoused opinionated expert, tell us the answer to that question and your action plan to get it fixed -- if it's such a big problem. Or are you simply content to whine about ad nausea?

Actually I'm looking now.

It's called discussing an issue, just because it's a discussion that you don't seem interested in that doesn't make it whinning. If you don't want to participate in the discussion just go on your merry way an keep your childish comments to yourself.

By the way try learning how to use the quote function.

[RobStubbs]

Actually the USAS are't my competitions if you look I'm in Ontario Canada where the women are free to shoot free pistol, in everything but the National team trial (which makes sense as the can't compete internationaly so there is no use getting a team spot in FP).

The only thing is that USAS uses the ISSF as justification for their stance on the matter.

Here is a question does it actually state anywhere in the ISSF rules that you have to be a man to shoot FP?

Yep I spotted that after I posted :-(

Anyway the USAS reason is just an excuse - assuming that's the reason they give - do we know that for a fact ? They can do what they like as yourand my countries do.

I did just look quickly through my rule book and couldn't spot anything that says 'mens 50m pistol' or 'ladies 25M pistol' for that matter.

Rob.

[David Levene]

I did just look quickly through my rule book and couldn't spot anything that says 'mens 50m pistol' or 'ladies 25M pistol' for that matter.

Rule 8.15.0