I have just returned from the Nationals down at Fort Benning and have many different thoughts. For me, this was one of the best Nationals for me personally. No my scores were not very good, I had some equipment problems which is very rare for me, and there were some other surprises that could be seen as negative.
But I had a great time with many different great people.
One question came up a couple of times that I thought would be interesting for further exploration. I heard some people say something to the effect that: "Well, if USAS shooting wants to promote THEIR sport..."
Is this really USAS's sport? Yes, they are the national governing body. But isn't this style of shooting our sport? Shouldn't we be responsible? If USAS is not present in our state or neighborhood, is it not our responsibility to hold the matches etc? Shouldn't we be raising topics at the membership meetings and providing feedback and being proactive?
Just wondering.
Whose sport is this any way?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi Pete
Unfortunately I suppose, I look at International Pistol as "their sport". I shoot conventional pistol (NRA) and will probably shoot the various action pistol disciplines. I don't shoot anything listed in the USAS list, THEREFORE it's their sport and them. IF I had a place to shoot around here (Kansas, Midwest) I might at least try International Pistol and become an us.
We (our county shooting sports group) will probably host air pistol matches, again probably as USAS matches when Martin gets back home and sends out our Tau-7's. I wonder if we can we get those from Pilkington at the same price??
Mike
Wichita KS
Unfortunately I suppose, I look at International Pistol as "their sport". I shoot conventional pistol (NRA) and will probably shoot the various action pistol disciplines. I don't shoot anything listed in the USAS list, THEREFORE it's their sport and them. IF I had a place to shoot around here (Kansas, Midwest) I might at least try International Pistol and become an us.
We (our county shooting sports group) will probably host air pistol matches, again probably as USAS matches when Martin gets back home and sends out our Tau-7's. I wonder if we can we get those from Pilkington at the same price??
Mike
Wichita KS
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Steve Swartz
Pete:
After every big match, during my "decompression" period, I tend to reflect on things big and small; those that went well and those that didn't. If I might I'd like to respond to your reflections and toss a couple of other things out there for general consumption:
- Too bad about the Pardini. Mechanical failures suck; no matter who's equipment you are sporting around with. You might want to share details on the Pardini failure, as it is identical to a failure Mark Kelly had at the Crosman Grand Prix last year. Two failures do not make a trend per se, but Pardini owners on this board might want the info so they can take preventive action.
- Perhaps, if we are serious about competing in the big matches, we should have a backup gun for each event. Anyone have details on Daryl Szarenski's FP problem? Yes, I know it sounds unreasonable to own "matched pairs" of every gun we compete with, but consider the alternatives . . . Also, a backup gun might not necessarily have to be identical to your primary gun (in the best case it should) but it shouldn't be totally different either . . .
- Your "Our Sport" comments are intriguing. As you know, we in the US have had many discussions (on line and off line) about the role and decisions of our NGB with respect to building a pool of competitive shooters who can "bring some game" in the international arena. I myself have cast some bread upon those waters multiple times. Some sub-comments:
-- Looks like we have two systems for olympic preparation: the AMU for adult olympians, and the USAS for Juniors. What about non-army adults?
-- The USAS has a charter, and interpretations vary as to what the words mean in practice. In theory, they are supposed to "grow the sport" in order to "compete at the olympics." However, it seems as though they find themselves in a dilemma when trying to do both. Like it or not, when faced with limited resources, they must choose between the two. So far it appears as though the USAS leadership see it as "growing the sport" OR "competing at the olympics." This apparent conflict has not been resolved . . . ?
-- So if we ("the membership") want to "grow the sport," we must do it in the trenches without USAMU or USAS support. The Army and Marine Corps will always recognize and develop the talent at their disposal, but within their priority systems. For the USAMU, that includes preparing olympians for the recruiting value. For the USMC, that means creating a cadre of shooters for developing marksmanship in the field. For the USAS, it is a matter of taking what the USAMU and USMC provide, plus trying to identify and develop talent "from the ground up" (meaning Juniors).
- I know we have had this discussion before . . . but where exactly *do* organizations like the NRA and CMP stand with respect to supporting the development of talent and participation in the international disciplines?
"More of the same" (see perspectives above) does not seem to be a proactive recipe for growth.
Steve Swartz
After every big match, during my "decompression" period, I tend to reflect on things big and small; those that went well and those that didn't. If I might I'd like to respond to your reflections and toss a couple of other things out there for general consumption:
- Too bad about the Pardini. Mechanical failures suck; no matter who's equipment you are sporting around with. You might want to share details on the Pardini failure, as it is identical to a failure Mark Kelly had at the Crosman Grand Prix last year. Two failures do not make a trend per se, but Pardini owners on this board might want the info so they can take preventive action.
- Perhaps, if we are serious about competing in the big matches, we should have a backup gun for each event. Anyone have details on Daryl Szarenski's FP problem? Yes, I know it sounds unreasonable to own "matched pairs" of every gun we compete with, but consider the alternatives . . . Also, a backup gun might not necessarily have to be identical to your primary gun (in the best case it should) but it shouldn't be totally different either . . .
- Your "Our Sport" comments are intriguing. As you know, we in the US have had many discussions (on line and off line) about the role and decisions of our NGB with respect to building a pool of competitive shooters who can "bring some game" in the international arena. I myself have cast some bread upon those waters multiple times. Some sub-comments:
-- Looks like we have two systems for olympic preparation: the AMU for adult olympians, and the USAS for Juniors. What about non-army adults?
-- The USAS has a charter, and interpretations vary as to what the words mean in practice. In theory, they are supposed to "grow the sport" in order to "compete at the olympics." However, it seems as though they find themselves in a dilemma when trying to do both. Like it or not, when faced with limited resources, they must choose between the two. So far it appears as though the USAS leadership see it as "growing the sport" OR "competing at the olympics." This apparent conflict has not been resolved . . . ?
-- So if we ("the membership") want to "grow the sport," we must do it in the trenches without USAMU or USAS support. The Army and Marine Corps will always recognize and develop the talent at their disposal, but within their priority systems. For the USAMU, that includes preparing olympians for the recruiting value. For the USMC, that means creating a cadre of shooters for developing marksmanship in the field. For the USAS, it is a matter of taking what the USAMU and USMC provide, plus trying to identify and develop talent "from the ground up" (meaning Juniors).
- I know we have had this discussion before . . . but where exactly *do* organizations like the NRA and CMP stand with respect to supporting the development of talent and participation in the international disciplines?
"More of the same" (see perspectives above) does not seem to be a proactive recipe for growth.
Steve Swartz
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Mike McDaniel
Steve brings up some very good points.
First, I highly recommend bringing backup guns. After a particularly nasty incident at the 2002 World Muzzle-Loading Championships, the U.S. team has taken to carrying some spares with us whenever we go to a major shoot. If you are part of a group, this is a lot easier - everybody brings one spare gun each - but even if you are alone, it is recommended.
Second, there is a big problem with respect to the adult civilian shooters. I believe that USAS tends to work the junior side obsessively, forgetting the adults. They might be better served by coordinating efforts with the NRA more, letting the latter work the junior ranks in AP (since the NRA and USAS both use the international rules), then take over when the kids decide to try the cartridge guns. We cannot be shackled to the professional military teams - you never know when the Army, like the Marines a decade ago, will decide to dump the international program and focus solely on Camp Perry.
First, I highly recommend bringing backup guns. After a particularly nasty incident at the 2002 World Muzzle-Loading Championships, the U.S. team has taken to carrying some spares with us whenever we go to a major shoot. If you are part of a group, this is a lot easier - everybody brings one spare gun each - but even if you are alone, it is recommended.
Second, there is a big problem with respect to the adult civilian shooters. I believe that USAS tends to work the junior side obsessively, forgetting the adults. They might be better served by coordinating efforts with the NRA more, letting the latter work the junior ranks in AP (since the NRA and USAS both use the international rules), then take over when the kids decide to try the cartridge guns. We cannot be shackled to the professional military teams - you never know when the Army, like the Marines a decade ago, will decide to dump the international program and focus solely on Camp Perry.
Concerning the Pardini K2s: I will explain in a separate post
Let us not waste bandwidth discussing NRA versus USAS. I am an NRA Life Member, shoot NRA matches, and they do a great job in their areas.
My point is that we can wait for USAS to do a lot of stuff. Get comfortable, it will be a long wait.
If we believe in and support ISSF shooting in the United States of America, get active on a local level and provide feedback to USAS.
One issue I raised with Mary Smith was that I thought USAS should provide tee-shirts and hats as give aways at the Nationals and other matches rather than the other trinkets such as the stop watches (two years ago),and this years pen, notepad and bottle. At least this year I saw some people using the bottle.
Mary's explanation was that she received complaints about "getting antoher tee shirt" and have left over odd tee-shirts. She turned to famous team member who replied he did not need another tee-shirt. The subject was brought up at the membership meeting. I think the idea will get consideration.
Also at the membership meeting at the Nationals, some said USAS shooting should establish a presense elsewhere in the country other than Ft. Benning and Colorado Springs. The only presense will be those of us that take action and create that presense as a junior program or PTO.
Let us not waste bandwidth discussing NRA versus USAS. I am an NRA Life Member, shoot NRA matches, and they do a great job in their areas.
My point is that we can wait for USAS to do a lot of stuff. Get comfortable, it will be a long wait.
If we believe in and support ISSF shooting in the United States of America, get active on a local level and provide feedback to USAS.
One issue I raised with Mary Smith was that I thought USAS should provide tee-shirts and hats as give aways at the Nationals and other matches rather than the other trinkets such as the stop watches (two years ago),and this years pen, notepad and bottle. At least this year I saw some people using the bottle.
Mary's explanation was that she received complaints about "getting antoher tee shirt" and have left over odd tee-shirts. She turned to famous team member who replied he did not need another tee-shirt. The subject was brought up at the membership meeting. I think the idea will get consideration.
Also at the membership meeting at the Nationals, some said USAS shooting should establish a presense elsewhere in the country other than Ft. Benning and Colorado Springs. The only presense will be those of us that take action and create that presense as a junior program or PTO.
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Richard Newman
Whose sport is it?
If the USAS isn't going to 'grow the sport', who is? AMU isn't an option unless you are in the Army and are already good enough to get their attention. The NRA has its own programs, and cooperation between USAS and NRA is very limited at best. So that leaves it up to the individual shooters to try and interest others. Sadly, the amount of 'clout' most individuals have in such efforts is small. An organized program, with the cachet of USAS, supporting individual efforts is needed. Unfortunately (at least to me) when I outlined my ideas on outreach and building interest a few months ago there was little interest by the users of this forum. I still haven't heard or read anything as a better alternative. Yes, USAS has a few specific ideas, but their value would be multiplied if done within a full structure that provided a more comprehensive support system to the new and developing international shooter.
I'm not going to repeat the details here. Look at the threads from some months ago. I still don't see any effective alternative. How about it??
Richard Newman
I'm not going to repeat the details here. Look at the threads from some months ago. I still don't see any effective alternative. How about it??
Richard Newman
I told myself to leave this well enough alone, but what the H___. Like Steve I have cast my bread upon these waters a number of times... and like many others that frequent this list I do something to make a difference – organize PTO's, recruit new shooters, recruit new USAS members, certified official, club committee chair, yada, yada, and yada. Every year after the nationals, we have these discussions and we come up with pretty much the same things. And every year our NGB ignores most of it. They may have no other choices. They probably don't have enough money. It really doesn't matter why. Like Pete said, it is our sport and if we want it to be something better, we have to make it that way.
So, like it or not, if you shoot international games in the US, you need to be a member of USAS. We can't have PTO's unless there are shooters to participate, and you can't shoot unless you are a member. It's so important, Scott put it on the main page of this board. And if you're a member, then you aught to be helping your local program. Volunteer to help out. We really do enjoy having help and it is nice to just shoot once in a while. I don't know about the rest of you, but I just don't shoot my best when doing double duty as the match director.
For the rest of us that have file cabinets of match reports and a club meeting schedule that would make any middle management suck-up green with envy, for us, we probably need to do one more thing. We need to do a better job of recruiting people to take over for us. Most programs, whether they be CMP High-Power, Benchrest, Youth Smallbore, ... whatever, are run by one or two people. That is not good for us or the programs.
I'd guess that there are a 50 times more conventional shooters around here than international ones. Maybe that's why Perry has 50 times as many particpants. Yeah, USAS could do more for the masses, but we can do it ourselves too.
Larry
So, like it or not, if you shoot international games in the US, you need to be a member of USAS. We can't have PTO's unless there are shooters to participate, and you can't shoot unless you are a member. It's so important, Scott put it on the main page of this board. And if you're a member, then you aught to be helping your local program. Volunteer to help out. We really do enjoy having help and it is nice to just shoot once in a while. I don't know about the rest of you, but I just don't shoot my best when doing double duty as the match director.
For the rest of us that have file cabinets of match reports and a club meeting schedule that would make any middle management suck-up green with envy, for us, we probably need to do one more thing. We need to do a better job of recruiting people to take over for us. Most programs, whether they be CMP High-Power, Benchrest, Youth Smallbore, ... whatever, are run by one or two people. That is not good for us or the programs.
I'd guess that there are a 50 times more conventional shooters around here than international ones. Maybe that's why Perry has 50 times as many particpants. Yeah, USAS could do more for the masses, but we can do it ourselves too.
Larry
I am new to USAS and the ISSF but I did want to bring your attention to the fact that they are in the process of rebuilding a range in Kerrville, TX, my hometown. To hold more matches and from what I have seen the NRA and ISSF are very interested in what the USAS is doing.
I can tell you that the owner of the land is working his tail off to produce the largest public USAS range in the country.
Check out the USAS page about the range in the Hill Country. They are spending money as well as many other organizations to make this work. We even have local support for both monetary and construction. The range is scheduled to open the first part of next year and from what I have seen I looks like it will be huge and it will cover all disciplines. They even have a 500m sniper range they just finished and are looking at another property to go out to 1000m.
I don't know how accessable Ft. Benning was to the gereral public or press. But this range will be open. So there should be more coverage and hopefully more interest.
I am certainly looking forward to it since I have been wanting to compete for several years but can't afford the travel.
Also since they will no longer be at Ft. Benning there will be no conflicts.
They are looking for coaches and volunteers to help with the matches.
I hope this helps with the visibility of the USAS as Jack Burke has put on some huge sporting clays events and knows how to handle large compettition.
If not it is as said before up to us to recruit and vote. So that the representation is more in line with the statement of purpose mentioned above.
One other thing to mention on the side is that there are still many people out there who are afraid of shooting. But with ESPN starting to show more shooting events this could change the inertia to our favor.
Thanks for listening
I can tell you that the owner of the land is working his tail off to produce the largest public USAS range in the country.
Check out the USAS page about the range in the Hill Country. They are spending money as well as many other organizations to make this work. We even have local support for both monetary and construction. The range is scheduled to open the first part of next year and from what I have seen I looks like it will be huge and it will cover all disciplines. They even have a 500m sniper range they just finished and are looking at another property to go out to 1000m.
I don't know how accessable Ft. Benning was to the gereral public or press. But this range will be open. So there should be more coverage and hopefully more interest.
I am certainly looking forward to it since I have been wanting to compete for several years but can't afford the travel.
Also since they will no longer be at Ft. Benning there will be no conflicts.
They are looking for coaches and volunteers to help with the matches.
I hope this helps with the visibility of the USAS as Jack Burke has put on some huge sporting clays events and knows how to handle large compettition.
If not it is as said before up to us to recruit and vote. So that the representation is more in line with the statement of purpose mentioned above.
One other thing to mention on the side is that there are still many people out there who are afraid of shooting. But with ESPN starting to show more shooting events this could change the inertia to our favor.
Thanks for listening