An interesting thing happened to Marilyn and I while going to the Canadian Grand Prix. While checking in at the airline counter in Denver, the TSA informed us that you cannot fly with any "Vessel" that they can't look inside to verify if there's anything nasty in it. They wanted us to open up our cylinders, and if we didn't we wouldn't be flying with them. They claim that this is a relatively new rule. After going up about 5 different chains of command, they finally took them away, and said they were going to inspect them, and we might be able to take them, and maybe not. After about 15 minutes, they came back and said that we could take them this time, but in the future, we would have to ship them by other means.
I did hear on the news this morning that in April, you will not be able to take any cigarette lighters on an airplane. Yes they did get upset with my sight black lighters, but at present, you can carry them on, but not in checked luggage.
Nobody else at the CGP that flew had this problem that I'm aware of. Has anybody else heard of this, or is this something that they made up here in Denver?
And after all this, I shot like crap. Marilyn won the Ladies SS class though.
R.M.
Traveling With Airguns
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Mike McDaniel
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TSA Guest
Make them show it to you in writing
Now don't try this as your trying to get on your flight, but well in advance, Write the TSA and request an official ruling on your air cylindar. It does have to be empty, but the rest of that is crap...
Traveling with airgun cylinders
I found this pdf file on the TSA site:
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrar ... 3_2004.pdf
If you scroll down to page 5 it says that compressed gas cylinders are not permitted in carryon or checked baggage. This is the first time I have ever heard of or seen this. Interestingly, the document is dated 8/23/04 yet many of us have flown since then with empty cylinders. Anyone have any concrete information regarding exceptions for our cylinders?
Ryan
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrar ... 3_2004.pdf
If you scroll down to page 5 it says that compressed gas cylinders are not permitted in carryon or checked baggage. This is the first time I have ever heard of or seen this. Interestingly, the document is dated 8/23/04 yet many of us have flown since then with empty cylinders. Anyone have any concrete information regarding exceptions for our cylinders?
Ryan
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Guest
TSA Questions
Send your questions to;
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrar ... 3_2004.pdf
Prohibited items are weapons, explosives, incendiaries, and include items that are seemingly
harmless but may be used as weapons—the so-called “dual use” items. You may not bring
these items to security checkpoints without authorization.
If you bring a prohibited item to the checkpoint, you may be criminally and/or civilly
prosecuted or, at the least, asked to rid yourself of the item. A screener and/or Law
Enforcement Officer will make this determination, depending on what the item is and the
circumstances. This is because bringing a prohibited item to a security checkpoint—even
accidentally—is illegal.
Your prohibited item may be detained for use in an investigation and, if necessary, as
evidence in your criminal and/or civil prosecution. If permitted by the screener or Law
Enforcement Officer, you may be allowed to: consult with the airlines for possible assistance
in placing the prohibited item in checked baggage; withdraw with the item from the
screening checkpoint at that time; make other arrangements for the item, such as taking it to
your car; or, voluntarily abandon the item. Items that are voluntarily abandoned cannot be
recovered and will not be returned to you.
The following chart outlines items that are permitted and items that are prohibited in your
carry-on or checked baggage. You should note that some items are allowed in your checked
baggage, but not your carry-on. Also pay careful attention to the “Notes” included at the
bottom of each section – they contain important information about restrictions.
The prohibited and permitted items chart is not intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as
necessary. To ensure everyone’s security, the screener may determine that an item not on the
prohibited items chart is prohibited. In addition, the screener may also determine that an
item on the permitted chart is dangerous and therefore may not be brought through the
security checkpoint.
The chart applies to flights originating within the United States. Please check with your
airline or travel agent for restrictions at destinations outside of the United States.
For updates and for more information, call our Consumer Response Center toll-free at 1-866-
289-9673 or email TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov.
Can I take it? Carry-on Checked Guns and Firearms Ammunition
Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked
baggage on the airline you are flying. If ammunition is permitted, it must be
declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must
be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically
designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if
any, that apply.
No Yes
BB guns No Yes
Compressed Air Guns No Yes
Firearms No Yes
Flare Guns No No
Gun Lighters No No
Gun Powder No No
Parts of Guns and Firearms No Yes
Pellet Guns No Yes
Realistic Replicas of Firearms No Yes
Starter Pistols No Yes
Note Check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are
flying. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded,
packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you, the passenger, may have
the key or combination.
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrar ... 3_2004.pdf
Prohibited items are weapons, explosives, incendiaries, and include items that are seemingly
harmless but may be used as weapons—the so-called “dual use” items. You may not bring
these items to security checkpoints without authorization.
If you bring a prohibited item to the checkpoint, you may be criminally and/or civilly
prosecuted or, at the least, asked to rid yourself of the item. A screener and/or Law
Enforcement Officer will make this determination, depending on what the item is and the
circumstances. This is because bringing a prohibited item to a security checkpoint—even
accidentally—is illegal.
Your prohibited item may be detained for use in an investigation and, if necessary, as
evidence in your criminal and/or civil prosecution. If permitted by the screener or Law
Enforcement Officer, you may be allowed to: consult with the airlines for possible assistance
in placing the prohibited item in checked baggage; withdraw with the item from the
screening checkpoint at that time; make other arrangements for the item, such as taking it to
your car; or, voluntarily abandon the item. Items that are voluntarily abandoned cannot be
recovered and will not be returned to you.
The following chart outlines items that are permitted and items that are prohibited in your
carry-on or checked baggage. You should note that some items are allowed in your checked
baggage, but not your carry-on. Also pay careful attention to the “Notes” included at the
bottom of each section – they contain important information about restrictions.
The prohibited and permitted items chart is not intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as
necessary. To ensure everyone’s security, the screener may determine that an item not on the
prohibited items chart is prohibited. In addition, the screener may also determine that an
item on the permitted chart is dangerous and therefore may not be brought through the
security checkpoint.
The chart applies to flights originating within the United States. Please check with your
airline or travel agent for restrictions at destinations outside of the United States.
For updates and for more information, call our Consumer Response Center toll-free at 1-866-
289-9673 or email TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov.
Can I take it? Carry-on Checked Guns and Firearms Ammunition
Check with your airline or travel agent to see if ammunition is permitted in checked
baggage on the airline you are flying. If ammunition is permitted, it must be
declared to the airline at check-in. Small arms ammunitions for personal use must
be securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes, or other packaging specifically
designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ask about limitations or fees, if
any, that apply.
No Yes
BB guns No Yes
Compressed Air Guns No Yes
Firearms No Yes
Flare Guns No No
Gun Lighters No No
Gun Powder No No
Parts of Guns and Firearms No Yes
Pellet Guns No Yes
Realistic Replicas of Firearms No Yes
Starter Pistols No Yes
Note Check with your airline or travel agent to see if firearms are permitted in checked baggage on the airline you are
flying. Ask about limitations or fees, if any, that apply. Firearms carried as checked baggage MUST be unloaded,
packed in a locked hard-sided gun case, and declared to the airline at check-in. Only you, the passenger, may have
the key or combination.
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sureshot007
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:24 am
- Location: Rochester, NY
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Dick Poore
Just returned from a business trip to Denver. Had zero problems with TSA regarding my AP. I declared it on check-in and was escorted to a "special" screening area. They opened the bag, looked at the AP, verified that the cylanders were empty...and I was on my way. Thanks to the Mumby's for breaking in those Denver TSA agents!!!
Dick Poore
Dick Poore
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
TSA Response on CA Cylinders
I wrote an email to TSA questioning whether we can carry empty cylinders. Their response was not very helpful:
Thank you for your email message.
Paintball guns and compressed air guns are similar, in that they both use CO2 cartridges. These guns are allowed without the cartridge in checked baggage only.
TSA Contact Center
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Mannis
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2005 3:00 PM
To: TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov.
Subject: Items Allowed on Aircraft
I have just read
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrar ... 3_2004.pdf
and have a question. Target grade air pistols are often powered by a
small tank of compressed air attached to the pistol. The tank is
typically 6-8" long by 1" diameter. If the tank is empty, can it be
carried with the air pistol in checked baggage?
Fred Mannis
Thank you for your email message.
Paintball guns and compressed air guns are similar, in that they both use CO2 cartridges. These guns are allowed without the cartridge in checked baggage only.
TSA Contact Center
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Mannis
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2005 3:00 PM
To: TSA-ContactCenter@dhs.gov.
Subject: Items Allowed on Aircraft
I have just read
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrar ... 3_2004.pdf
and have a question. Target grade air pistols are often powered by a
small tank of compressed air attached to the pistol. The tank is
typically 6-8" long by 1" diameter. If the tank is empty, can it be
carried with the air pistol in checked baggage?
Fred Mannis
FWIW, I traveled with my LP-1P a couple months ago from DFW to BWI and back and didn't have any problems. I just showed that my cylinders were empty and the chamber was empty (along with those of the other guns I was checking in).
The TSA people watched and the counter person just slipped a tag inside my gun case and I locked it back up. I was asked to stick around the counter until the case went all the way through all the security folks in case they needed me to open it back up (only had to wait an extra 5-10 minutes or so).
The TSA folks I encountered seemed to know little about how my guns operated and how to verify the cylinders were empty and the guns were unloaded. They seemed pretty willing to defer to my judgment when I explained what I was doing as I showed them an empty chamber.
The TSA people watched and the counter person just slipped a tag inside my gun case and I locked it back up. I was asked to stick around the counter until the case went all the way through all the security folks in case they needed me to open it back up (only had to wait an extra 5-10 minutes or so).
The TSA folks I encountered seemed to know little about how my guns operated and how to verify the cylinders were empty and the guns were unloaded. They seemed pretty willing to defer to my judgment when I explained what I was doing as I showed them an empty chamber.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Forgive me for the slightly off-topic post, but it is related to this TSA thread and moderately humorous in a way. A coworker in my office is engaged to be married in a couple of weeks. His wife flew back to NC this past weekend for a baby shower, and pulled one gift at random to save to bring back for him to unwrap. It wasn't that big, so she just stuck it in her carry-on bag. The bag went through the X-ray, and that's when both she and the TSA learned that the gift she picked (which was still wrapped) happen to be a set of steak knives. She ended up in her own private interrogation room for quite a long time (she of course missed her flight.) The worst part is she was cited for attempting to bring a weapon onto a plane and is facing a $1000 fine. So, to tie it in if only loosely with this thread, don't underestimate the potential for problems when dealing with airline security.
-Ted
-Ted
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GA Guest
Update to Air Cylinder Issue
Subject: Air Rifle Air Cylinders on Passenger Aircraft
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:24:10 -0500
Mr. McClain:
It was a pleasure to talk to you regarding the transporting of air rifle air cylinders on passenger aircraft by competitors in the Junior Olympic program. The air cylinders you described, even though they are made of light weight aluminum, would be considered by TSA screeners as cylinders containing compressed gas. Empty cylinders are permitted in both checked baggage and carry-on luggage, however, an empty cylinder may be prohibited in carry-on luggage if the screening supervisor determines that the cylinder poses a security threat by the ability to use it in some other manner such as a bludgeon. In order for a screener to accept a cylinder as being empty, the screener must visually inspect the cylinder both inside and outside. The valve must be removed from the end of the cylinder which would create an open end. Cylinders without an open end and valve removed are not permitted on board the aircraft. I understand that the valves on the cylinders you described are not removable and there is no way for these cylinders to have open ends. Recently, TSA worked a similar problem with the American Paint Ball Association and one of their competitions. TSA provided the same information that I have provided you in this email to the Paint Ball Association. They used that information along with information found on the TSA website to inform their members of the issues and restrictions to enable them to plan accordingly. The feedback TSA received from the Paint Ball Association regarding this campaign was very positive and their competitors, as well as the TSA screeners, encountered very few problems in screening the competitors. It is not the object of TSA screening procedures to single out any one group of people or to inhibit any individual’s activity. TSA screening procedures are designed to ensure the security of all aviation travelers throughout the United States. I hope this information is beneficial to you and that the Junior Olympic competition is a success. If I can be of any further service to you, please contact me.
Best Regards
Peter W. Pandolfi
Transportation Security Specialist
Aviation Screening
Security Standards and Regulatory Programs
571-227-2315
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:24:10 -0500
Mr. McClain:
It was a pleasure to talk to you regarding the transporting of air rifle air cylinders on passenger aircraft by competitors in the Junior Olympic program. The air cylinders you described, even though they are made of light weight aluminum, would be considered by TSA screeners as cylinders containing compressed gas. Empty cylinders are permitted in both checked baggage and carry-on luggage, however, an empty cylinder may be prohibited in carry-on luggage if the screening supervisor determines that the cylinder poses a security threat by the ability to use it in some other manner such as a bludgeon. In order for a screener to accept a cylinder as being empty, the screener must visually inspect the cylinder both inside and outside. The valve must be removed from the end of the cylinder which would create an open end. Cylinders without an open end and valve removed are not permitted on board the aircraft. I understand that the valves on the cylinders you described are not removable and there is no way for these cylinders to have open ends. Recently, TSA worked a similar problem with the American Paint Ball Association and one of their competitions. TSA provided the same information that I have provided you in this email to the Paint Ball Association. They used that information along with information found on the TSA website to inform their members of the issues and restrictions to enable them to plan accordingly. The feedback TSA received from the Paint Ball Association regarding this campaign was very positive and their competitors, as well as the TSA screeners, encountered very few problems in screening the competitors. It is not the object of TSA screening procedures to single out any one group of people or to inhibit any individual’s activity. TSA screening procedures are designed to ensure the security of all aviation travelers throughout the United States. I hope this information is beneficial to you and that the Junior Olympic competition is a success. If I can be of any further service to you, please contact me.
Best Regards
Peter W. Pandolfi
Transportation Security Specialist
Aviation Screening
Security Standards and Regulatory Programs
571-227-2315
TSA Policy Writers Foulup
To "cqbarms": Mr. Pandolfi's letter was apparently forwarded recently via email to a rather large email list and it likely got re-forwarded to many others.
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To Everyone:
Here is the deal. In the TSA "prohibited and allowed" items document already referenced in this thread:
1) Compressed Air Guns are allowed.
2) Compressed Cylinders are not.
Do we see a problem here?
I think so!
An air gun without its air cylinder is not an air gun. At that point, there is nothing to allow - as is allowed in point 1 above.
The TSA does NOT see a problem here! Not officially, anyway.
TSA procedures vary significantly from airport to airport and from week to week. Just because you had no problem with TSA does not mean there is no problem. It merely means you were lucky.
Several Junior Olympic athletes had huge problems. Wait until you try to fly to Nationals... you will find that some people will have zero problems and wonder what all the fuss is about and others will have horror stories and wonder why "somebody" didn't "do something" to resolve it ahead of time.
I have heard, but not verified, that Bob Mitchell of USAS met with a TSA official in Colorado recently and that things appeared to be ok. (I do not yet know the details.) I can assure you that a TSA "official" in Colorado, no matter how highly placed cannot and did not resolve this issue, despite the assurances to the contrary given by that official.
As an aside, the "paintball solution" was they were told to ship the air cylinders via commercial cargo (UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc...)!!!! Give me a break!!!
There are ways to check air gun cylinders. If aluminum, x-ray. Regardless, they have another machine at each airport that can do additional testing and show the cylinder is safe. Even before that, see if the cylinder seems to weigh a lot more than it should or has unusual attachments, and so on. I'm sure there's more. Regardless, I *know* the true experts (not me) have already come up with ways to quickly and reliably clear these devices with existing equipment.
The TSA is NOT ever going to resolve this issue, unless SIGNIFICANT pressure is brought to bear. What constitutes "significant" in this context? Several members of Congress making inquiries, that's what. How do they get involved? That's up to you and me... we are the "somebody" that has to "do something" ahead of time. I'm not blowing smoke or over-reacting here... I've done my research and done it in the right places. Right now, this is what it will take. Mark my words.
Until then, we give up essential liberty for a bit of alleged "safety" just as Ben Franklin warned us!
"Feel Center!"
-JP
--
To Everyone:
Here is the deal. In the TSA "prohibited and allowed" items document already referenced in this thread:
1) Compressed Air Guns are allowed.
2) Compressed Cylinders are not.
Do we see a problem here?
I think so!
An air gun without its air cylinder is not an air gun. At that point, there is nothing to allow - as is allowed in point 1 above.
The TSA does NOT see a problem here! Not officially, anyway.
TSA procedures vary significantly from airport to airport and from week to week. Just because you had no problem with TSA does not mean there is no problem. It merely means you were lucky.
Several Junior Olympic athletes had huge problems. Wait until you try to fly to Nationals... you will find that some people will have zero problems and wonder what all the fuss is about and others will have horror stories and wonder why "somebody" didn't "do something" to resolve it ahead of time.
I have heard, but not verified, that Bob Mitchell of USAS met with a TSA official in Colorado recently and that things appeared to be ok. (I do not yet know the details.) I can assure you that a TSA "official" in Colorado, no matter how highly placed cannot and did not resolve this issue, despite the assurances to the contrary given by that official.
As an aside, the "paintball solution" was they were told to ship the air cylinders via commercial cargo (UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc...)!!!! Give me a break!!!
There are ways to check air gun cylinders. If aluminum, x-ray. Regardless, they have another machine at each airport that can do additional testing and show the cylinder is safe. Even before that, see if the cylinder seems to weigh a lot more than it should or has unusual attachments, and so on. I'm sure there's more. Regardless, I *know* the true experts (not me) have already come up with ways to quickly and reliably clear these devices with existing equipment.
The TSA is NOT ever going to resolve this issue, unless SIGNIFICANT pressure is brought to bear. What constitutes "significant" in this context? Several members of Congress making inquiries, that's what. How do they get involved? That's up to you and me... we are the "somebody" that has to "do something" ahead of time. I'm not blowing smoke or over-reacting here... I've done my research and done it in the right places. Right now, this is what it will take. Mark my words.
Until then, we give up essential liberty for a bit of alleged "safety" just as Ben Franklin warned us!
"Feel Center!"
-JP
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Mike McDaniel
I agree with Mr. O'Connor. Write your Congresscritter and Senators. Better still, either call or send them a fax. And if anyone knows one of the high-traffic blogs, let them know, too.
I find it ironic that an air gun with an empty tank poses more of a problem than a cartridge firearm with 10 lbs of ammunition.
I find it ironic that an air gun with an empty tank poses more of a problem than a cartridge firearm with 10 lbs of ammunition.