I just finished looking at the latest USA Shooting News and the columns by Bob Mitchell and others on the state of Olympic shooting and USAS plans for the near future. Very Interesting...Both for what was said, and for what wasn't said. I was certainly glad to see a statement of committment on development of new shooters (in view of my comments on that subject in threads on this forum a few months ago), but I didn't see a broad organized plan. Maybe they felt the News was too high level a forum for details. I wasn't surprised to see lack of International style ranges listed as a problem, and the cost of International quality ranges is indeed high, but on these topics I have a few comments.
First, is that to attract new shooters we need to go outside the current club membership of USAS. This is a marketing task. There are many clubs and shooters out there who have never tried International, and they need to be enticed into our sport, possibly by degrees, so that it doesn't hurt financially to get started.
Second is that there needs to be a system of recognition for participation and accomplishment. The NRA junior program is quite good at this, providing various levels of awards and recognition - none of it expensive - as skill and participation grows. Maybe USAS needs a program of skill levels and competitiions with somewhat relaxed rules which permit conventional ranges and firearms to be used as a starting point.
Third is that you need to attract the adults as well. At least in my experience, when my kids were growing up, there was a lot more good interaction between the parents and kids in the shooting clubs than in many other sports, or in general. Where involved parents go, the kids follow. Yes, the juniors may be the future of Olympic shooting, but getting them started requires involving their parents.
What do you all out there think? Apparently my suggestions earlier were of no great interest to anyone, as I had little feedback. Do some of you have a better set of ideas which USAS could use to generate an organized "multi-modal" attack on the problem???
Richard Newman
USAS State of the Sport
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
OK, Richard, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth:
1. USAS needs to add a lower level match where USAS membership is not required to compete (like NRA Approved matches). I think this is holding back some clubs from putting on USAS matches. Let 'em compete, but if you want to get a USAS classification, then you have to be a member. However, USAS would get a name and address to add to their fundraising/memberhip recruiting list. More USAS matches = more recognition of USAS and international shooting, which in the long run will benefit all. While we're at it, work with the NRA to move the sanctioning for all the international shooting disciplines over to USAS. It makes no sense for the NRA to continue sanctioning these matches when USAS is the governing body and organizes the national championships.
2. Make the national championships more affordable to attend! Much is posted elsewhere on this forum so I won't repeat it here.
3. Lower the membership costs for juniors. Currently, first year junior membership is free, but renewal is $20. That's too much, especially when added to the adult membership rate of $35. I would suggest that the junior membership cost be reduced to whatever it takes to mail the magazine. Again, we have to get the message out. It also wouldn't hurt to add more junior focused content in the magazine - how about a rotating column written by supported junior shooters? Otherwise, I think that USAS has some good junior programs underway, including the new Jr Progressive-Position Air Pistol program.
4. Range availability is a problem. How many places in this country can we shoot the Olympic Rapid Fire match?? How many world class ranges exist in the US? Not very da** many!
1. USAS needs to add a lower level match where USAS membership is not required to compete (like NRA Approved matches). I think this is holding back some clubs from putting on USAS matches. Let 'em compete, but if you want to get a USAS classification, then you have to be a member. However, USAS would get a name and address to add to their fundraising/memberhip recruiting list. More USAS matches = more recognition of USAS and international shooting, which in the long run will benefit all. While we're at it, work with the NRA to move the sanctioning for all the international shooting disciplines over to USAS. It makes no sense for the NRA to continue sanctioning these matches when USAS is the governing body and organizes the national championships.
2. Make the national championships more affordable to attend! Much is posted elsewhere on this forum so I won't repeat it here.
3. Lower the membership costs for juniors. Currently, first year junior membership is free, but renewal is $20. That's too much, especially when added to the adult membership rate of $35. I would suggest that the junior membership cost be reduced to whatever it takes to mail the magazine. Again, we have to get the message out. It also wouldn't hurt to add more junior focused content in the magazine - how about a rotating column written by supported junior shooters? Otherwise, I think that USAS has some good junior programs underway, including the new Jr Progressive-Position Air Pistol program.
4. Range availability is a problem. How many places in this country can we shoot the Olympic Rapid Fire match?? How many world class ranges exist in the US? Not very da** many!
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Marc Orvin
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:23 am
- Location: Colorado
I guess I just don't see what the problem is. From the things you have listed as issues, the only thing I can think of that is lacking is communication.
USAS already has a grass-roots program for attracting junior pistol shooters. I have seen it in practice at the OTC shooting club. The information has been published at least twice with contact information for Martin Edmundson for those interested in getting a program going.
Rapid Fire - Robert Mumby has posted on this site more than once about how easy it is to build a rapid fire setup for 50 feet. I have shot on his equipment and it works extremely well and the whole setup was very inexpensive to build. Less than a third the cost of a decent air pistol.
Attracting shooters from other disciplines - USA Shooting gathered several of the hot shooters from IPSC to shoot the rapid fire discipline. I don't see any of them still involved. The fact that they didn't do particularly well and that there are no million dollar contracts for shooting that game may have had something to do with it.
Rifle stuff - USA Shooting sanctions JR Olympic matches in air and smallbore every year in any state that wants to put on a match. They conduct a national championship just for the juniors every year in Colorado Springs. I can't think of any more "rewarding" thing than to finish high enough in your state to attend the nationals. There are excellent coaching clinics each year at nationals.
JR memberships - Free the first year is a good deal. 20 bucks after that is a reasonable fee. This isn't a cheap sport. Try hockey if you think USA Shooting memberships are expensive.
Recognition - USA Shooting classification increases are a reward themselves. Winning your class at nationals is a great reward. If you are conducting PTO's in your area, nothing is stopping you from providing classification awards for your juniors for whatever class they are in.
I guess I just don't understand what it is that you folks want that USA Shooting is not providing. They are not going to build you a 25 meter rapid fire setup. The year my son won the JR national championship in rapid fire, he never had seen a 25 meter target until he got to Atlanta. He trained with an IPSC timer on stationary targets. I just don't buy the argument that you need to be training on Olympic ranges to compete at high levels.
Rant mode off.
USAS already has a grass-roots program for attracting junior pistol shooters. I have seen it in practice at the OTC shooting club. The information has been published at least twice with contact information for Martin Edmundson for those interested in getting a program going.
Rapid Fire - Robert Mumby has posted on this site more than once about how easy it is to build a rapid fire setup for 50 feet. I have shot on his equipment and it works extremely well and the whole setup was very inexpensive to build. Less than a third the cost of a decent air pistol.
Attracting shooters from other disciplines - USA Shooting gathered several of the hot shooters from IPSC to shoot the rapid fire discipline. I don't see any of them still involved. The fact that they didn't do particularly well and that there are no million dollar contracts for shooting that game may have had something to do with it.
Rifle stuff - USA Shooting sanctions JR Olympic matches in air and smallbore every year in any state that wants to put on a match. They conduct a national championship just for the juniors every year in Colorado Springs. I can't think of any more "rewarding" thing than to finish high enough in your state to attend the nationals. There are excellent coaching clinics each year at nationals.
JR memberships - Free the first year is a good deal. 20 bucks after that is a reasonable fee. This isn't a cheap sport. Try hockey if you think USA Shooting memberships are expensive.
Recognition - USA Shooting classification increases are a reward themselves. Winning your class at nationals is a great reward. If you are conducting PTO's in your area, nothing is stopping you from providing classification awards for your juniors for whatever class they are in.
I guess I just don't understand what it is that you folks want that USA Shooting is not providing. They are not going to build you a 25 meter rapid fire setup. The year my son won the JR national championship in rapid fire, he never had seen a 25 meter target until he got to Atlanta. He trained with an IPSC timer on stationary targets. I just don't buy the argument that you need to be training on Olympic ranges to compete at high levels.
Rant mode off.
On a grass roots level, I say start doing what we can to increase the AWARENESS of the international disciplines of the shooting sports first! Heck, there are members of my own shooting club that wouldn't know what a Free Pistol was unless their uncle died!
Recently, I contacted the local newspaper in my area and asked if they would like to run as story on the sport of AP and to my astonishment, they did! Unfortunately, they edited out the parts that I really wanted in the story which included an email address for those interested in learning more or trying the sport to contact me with, but it was the lead story in the sports section none the less. I am in the process of setting up a 10m range with three firing points (my first Gehmann manual target system is on the way from Pilk's) at a storage facility so that I can have both a nice place to practice outside of my home (for a more match quality feel) and also as a way to introduce others to the sport of AP. I have talked with the Range Officer of my club about holding a FP match at our range this summer, not a sanctioned event, but just a "fun" match with everything from bullseye guns to TC contenders on the line, as long as they are .22LR and conform to the basic rules. I am also planning to restart the junior AP program that I developed several years ago to introduce young shooters to the sport of AP as it is a reasonable-cost option to the rifle sports due to the small amount of specialized equipment needed to take the line (pistols and pellets essentially, with the club supplying both for the juniors).
The bottom line, and the point I am trying to make is this: Ask not what your NGB can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your NGB. (apologies to JFK for the paraphrasing)
Recently, I contacted the local newspaper in my area and asked if they would like to run as story on the sport of AP and to my astonishment, they did! Unfortunately, they edited out the parts that I really wanted in the story which included an email address for those interested in learning more or trying the sport to contact me with, but it was the lead story in the sports section none the less. I am in the process of setting up a 10m range with three firing points (my first Gehmann manual target system is on the way from Pilk's) at a storage facility so that I can have both a nice place to practice outside of my home (for a more match quality feel) and also as a way to introduce others to the sport of AP. I have talked with the Range Officer of my club about holding a FP match at our range this summer, not a sanctioned event, but just a "fun" match with everything from bullseye guns to TC contenders on the line, as long as they are .22LR and conform to the basic rules. I am also planning to restart the junior AP program that I developed several years ago to introduce young shooters to the sport of AP as it is a reasonable-cost option to the rifle sports due to the small amount of specialized equipment needed to take the line (pistols and pellets essentially, with the club supplying both for the juniors).
The bottom line, and the point I am trying to make is this: Ask not what your NGB can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your NGB. (apologies to JFK for the paraphrasing)
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
I agree...
With Marc Orvin, and I will add my own points as well. There seems to be a lot of complaining about how USA Shooting operates. As a former athlete at the Training Center I have done my fair share of complaining.
What I have come to realize is that I believe everyone at USA Shooting is trying their best. I do not think they are purposely doing things to conflict what the membership requests.
As far as the points made to make shooting easier to participate in...I began shooting when NRA was still around. It was nice to be reimbursed for some travel costs to JO. It was neat to hear stories about National Team members going to so many overseas matches. Then NRA was gone and USA Shooting was formed. The operating budget dropped severly. After USA Shooting took over, I was still able to become a resident athlete and compete in the Olympics.
Keep this in mind. Medals aside, USA Shooting is able to field large teams
at the Olympics and World Cups.
In my experience as a shooter and now a police officer I have come to realize an important aspect of life. Lazy people are the ones to make excuses. I see it every day. I go on calls and give people legitmate solutions to their problems and out come the excuses, left and right. If the solution involves effort on their part, the excuses continue. People want the easy way out. Competing at the National/International/Olympic level is not about the easy way...it's about sacrifice and working hard. Yeah, people like Matt Emmons and Daryl Szarenski make shooting look easy, but in reality it isn't. There is a lot of behind the scenes training that you and I never see.
I see USA Shooting doing a good job with the resources they have. I imagine some people want USA Shooting to hold their gun and shoot the targets as well.
It comes down to this. If you want to shoot in USA Shooting sanctioned matches to attain your Olympic dreams:
1) Join USA Shooting
2) Train your ass off
3) Go to the selection matches
4) Shoot the scores
I see a lot complaints from people on the "fence". What I mean is people trying to decide between shooting as a hobby or working toward the international level. The rewards are greater at the international level, but the sacrifce made increases drastically. People are not willing to make the sacrifice and therefore complain.
It's a simple fact, you need to be a member of the Governing Body of the sport. You need to travel which means you need to pay expenses. There are complaints about how Nationals are run and it needs to be shorter. The National Championships are run very closely to the scheduling of World Cups and other International matches. This is to the benefit of the top shooters when they go overseas. It is also to the benfit of the volunteers. I am aware this point has been discussed at length already.
The majority of complaints about USA Shooting can be easliy solved by having the membership sacrifice a little more for what they want.
Mike Douglass
What I have come to realize is that I believe everyone at USA Shooting is trying their best. I do not think they are purposely doing things to conflict what the membership requests.
As far as the points made to make shooting easier to participate in...I began shooting when NRA was still around. It was nice to be reimbursed for some travel costs to JO. It was neat to hear stories about National Team members going to so many overseas matches. Then NRA was gone and USA Shooting was formed. The operating budget dropped severly. After USA Shooting took over, I was still able to become a resident athlete and compete in the Olympics.
Keep this in mind. Medals aside, USA Shooting is able to field large teams
at the Olympics and World Cups.
In my experience as a shooter and now a police officer I have come to realize an important aspect of life. Lazy people are the ones to make excuses. I see it every day. I go on calls and give people legitmate solutions to their problems and out come the excuses, left and right. If the solution involves effort on their part, the excuses continue. People want the easy way out. Competing at the National/International/Olympic level is not about the easy way...it's about sacrifice and working hard. Yeah, people like Matt Emmons and Daryl Szarenski make shooting look easy, but in reality it isn't. There is a lot of behind the scenes training that you and I never see.
I see USA Shooting doing a good job with the resources they have. I imagine some people want USA Shooting to hold their gun and shoot the targets as well.
It comes down to this. If you want to shoot in USA Shooting sanctioned matches to attain your Olympic dreams:
1) Join USA Shooting
2) Train your ass off
3) Go to the selection matches
4) Shoot the scores
I see a lot complaints from people on the "fence". What I mean is people trying to decide between shooting as a hobby or working toward the international level. The rewards are greater at the international level, but the sacrifce made increases drastically. People are not willing to make the sacrifice and therefore complain.
It's a simple fact, you need to be a member of the Governing Body of the sport. You need to travel which means you need to pay expenses. There are complaints about how Nationals are run and it needs to be shorter. The National Championships are run very closely to the scheduling of World Cups and other International matches. This is to the benefit of the top shooters when they go overseas. It is also to the benfit of the volunteers. I am aware this point has been discussed at length already.
The majority of complaints about USA Shooting can be easliy solved by having the membership sacrifice a little more for what they want.
Mike Douglass
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john bickar
- Posts: 618
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:58 am
- Location: Corner of Walk & Don't Walk
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Now that's funny...
Of course I'm not a USA Shooting member...maybe I'll become one so I can vie for the Colorado State Champioship ; ) I'll wait for you to move out of the state so I can have a chance at it...
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
correction
Champioship=Championship
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Lee Jr wrote:
While we're at it, work with the NRA to move the sanctioning for all the international shooting disciplines over to USAS. It makes no sense for the NRA to continue sanctioning these matches when USAS is the governing body and organizes the national championships.
An excellent point. All the AP matches in my area are NRA, not USAS. My membership in USAS, and growing interest in USAS issues, only happened because I wanted to shoot in a local FP match. People will join, and grass roots support will build, if USAS has something to offer the average shooter.
In my area, I see hundreds of people out every weekend shooting Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays for fun as well as competitively. I don't think any of it is International style. A club is not going to spend the money on an international target trap unless the shooters want it. And the people I talk to are mainly content to stick with the pistol, rifle and shotgun shooting that they were brought up with. IMHO the USAS is going to have to aggressively market the benefits of international style shooting vs NRA or NSSA matches. When I started shooting 'non bullseye' pistol matches twenty years ago, matches were few and far between. Now you can find an IPSC, IDPA, PPC or Cowboy Action match almost every weekend. Action shooting is so successful that the bulleye people are lamenting the dwindling number of BE shooters. So it's possible to get shooters to change/adopt different types of shooting competition, but you have to give them a reason for doing so.
Fred Mannis
While we're at it, work with the NRA to move the sanctioning for all the international shooting disciplines over to USAS. It makes no sense for the NRA to continue sanctioning these matches when USAS is the governing body and organizes the national championships.
An excellent point. All the AP matches in my area are NRA, not USAS. My membership in USAS, and growing interest in USAS issues, only happened because I wanted to shoot in a local FP match. People will join, and grass roots support will build, if USAS has something to offer the average shooter.
In my area, I see hundreds of people out every weekend shooting Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays for fun as well as competitively. I don't think any of it is International style. A club is not going to spend the money on an international target trap unless the shooters want it. And the people I talk to are mainly content to stick with the pistol, rifle and shotgun shooting that they were brought up with. IMHO the USAS is going to have to aggressively market the benefits of international style shooting vs NRA or NSSA matches. When I started shooting 'non bullseye' pistol matches twenty years ago, matches were few and far between. Now you can find an IPSC, IDPA, PPC or Cowboy Action match almost every weekend. Action shooting is so successful that the bulleye people are lamenting the dwindling number of BE shooters. So it's possible to get shooters to change/adopt different types of shooting competition, but you have to give them a reason for doing so.
Fred Mannis
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Clarification
Let me make this point right now. You stated:
"Let's face it. There are darned few shooters in the USA who are going to sacrifice virtually everything for their international competition dream." To those people who are unwilling to sacrifice, they have no place demanding so much from USA Shooting if they are unwilling to do work on their part.
I think the problem here is that the goals of two different groups are being mixed. The two groups are Elite Athletes and General Membership.
USA Shooting is the governing body of Olympic style shooting in the United States. A large focus of the organization is to WIN medals at the Olympic Games. USA Shooting receives a large portion of money from the USOC in exchange. Unfortunately, this means a lot of the focus is given to the Elite Athletes.
One issue:
I am not going to say the current scheduling of the USASNC is critical to the success of our athletes overseas, but let's keep a few things in mind.
1) Keeping the focus of USA Shooting in mind, I believe the purpose of the Nationals is to select members of the National Team. Once that team is selected it is the job of USA Shooting to train them for International competition.
2) To those shooters who are focused on making the team and working to the International level, the schedule at USASNC is how most International matches are...lots of down time. My point is, if you are unhappy with the USANC and want to shoot Internationally, you better get used to it, because that's how it will be.
Now we run into a problem here. There are the General members that just want to shoot USASNC without shelling out a lot of money. I understand that a lot of revenue is genrated from the General Membership to help run USA Shooting. It is a very good point that the General Membership should be accomodated due to their monetary contributions. I agree with that Stan.
Ok, so you don't want to compete in the Olympics, but you want more access to shooting ranges, shooting matches and better youth programs. I'm sorry to say this, but as a member it is your responsibility to do some work on your own. If you just wait for someone else to do the leg work, nothing will get done. Being a member of USA Shooting does not entitle you to sit on your ass and be served. It is your duty to make the organization better.
With all that said, how many USA Shooting members are actively doing something to help? I know there are a lot and I could probably name them. But I imagine the ones that are complaining, might not being doing all they can. Like my previous post indicated, people like to complain. I am certain there are legitmate complaints by hard working members. However there are always going to be those people who complain just because they like to.
As far as furthering the sport. I think a lot of the responsibilty lies in the local clubs. How many local club members are trying to promote the sport at the municipal level? I believe it's the duty of local clubs to introdue the sport, getting new shooters involved and then introduce them to USA Shooting. It's USA Shooting's job to select those them deem fit, to the National Team. USA Shooting has no problems fielding World Cup, International Championship and Olympic Teams.
This is my suggestion and added points concerning the cost of USASNC:
1) You can't blame USA Shooting for flight costs...get mad at the airline industry
2) I understand the duration of the matches leads to higher costs such as rental cars and hotel rooms. A little organizing and planning would allow hotel rooms and rental cars to be shared, thus driving down expenses. Ask Joel Sexton, he was able to do it with Junior, I'm sure someone could make his system work for adults. I used his system as a junior...it works, but takes a lot of planning.
3) If USA Shooting were to shorten the schedule, it would take an increase in manpower. I say they should take their current entry fees and add $20-$30 on top of that. If you volunteer your time to help USASNC run more efficiently, you get that money back. If you don't, they keep the extra money. It's a lot like a core charge at an auto parts place. You get the initail charge, but it is returned once you come back with the desired item. In this case the desired item is WORK.
In conclusion, I think there are plenty of options to make things better, I just see people that are more willing to complain than do anything to help. There will always be those people.
In addition to people being unwilling to help, it's also strange how reluctant people are to receive help. I recently received an email telling me of a junior camp at Camp Perry during the summer. I replied and stated I would be willing to help coach. The response was basically, "No, we have it covered". I know the involved people pretty well and it amazes me that help is being turned down. I was told there were two coaches, yet the document stated the camp is limited to 25 shooters. 25:2 ratio...I would think the more coaches the better, but what do I know.
Hmmmmm...is that why people are unwilling to help USA Shooting?
Mike Douglass
"Let's face it. There are darned few shooters in the USA who are going to sacrifice virtually everything for their international competition dream." To those people who are unwilling to sacrifice, they have no place demanding so much from USA Shooting if they are unwilling to do work on their part.
I think the problem here is that the goals of two different groups are being mixed. The two groups are Elite Athletes and General Membership.
USA Shooting is the governing body of Olympic style shooting in the United States. A large focus of the organization is to WIN medals at the Olympic Games. USA Shooting receives a large portion of money from the USOC in exchange. Unfortunately, this means a lot of the focus is given to the Elite Athletes.
One issue:
I am not going to say the current scheduling of the USASNC is critical to the success of our athletes overseas, but let's keep a few things in mind.
1) Keeping the focus of USA Shooting in mind, I believe the purpose of the Nationals is to select members of the National Team. Once that team is selected it is the job of USA Shooting to train them for International competition.
2) To those shooters who are focused on making the team and working to the International level, the schedule at USASNC is how most International matches are...lots of down time. My point is, if you are unhappy with the USANC and want to shoot Internationally, you better get used to it, because that's how it will be.
Now we run into a problem here. There are the General members that just want to shoot USASNC without shelling out a lot of money. I understand that a lot of revenue is genrated from the General Membership to help run USA Shooting. It is a very good point that the General Membership should be accomodated due to their monetary contributions. I agree with that Stan.
Ok, so you don't want to compete in the Olympics, but you want more access to shooting ranges, shooting matches and better youth programs. I'm sorry to say this, but as a member it is your responsibility to do some work on your own. If you just wait for someone else to do the leg work, nothing will get done. Being a member of USA Shooting does not entitle you to sit on your ass and be served. It is your duty to make the organization better.
With all that said, how many USA Shooting members are actively doing something to help? I know there are a lot and I could probably name them. But I imagine the ones that are complaining, might not being doing all they can. Like my previous post indicated, people like to complain. I am certain there are legitmate complaints by hard working members. However there are always going to be those people who complain just because they like to.
As far as furthering the sport. I think a lot of the responsibilty lies in the local clubs. How many local club members are trying to promote the sport at the municipal level? I believe it's the duty of local clubs to introdue the sport, getting new shooters involved and then introduce them to USA Shooting. It's USA Shooting's job to select those them deem fit, to the National Team. USA Shooting has no problems fielding World Cup, International Championship and Olympic Teams.
This is my suggestion and added points concerning the cost of USASNC:
1) You can't blame USA Shooting for flight costs...get mad at the airline industry
2) I understand the duration of the matches leads to higher costs such as rental cars and hotel rooms. A little organizing and planning would allow hotel rooms and rental cars to be shared, thus driving down expenses. Ask Joel Sexton, he was able to do it with Junior, I'm sure someone could make his system work for adults. I used his system as a junior...it works, but takes a lot of planning.
3) If USA Shooting were to shorten the schedule, it would take an increase in manpower. I say they should take their current entry fees and add $20-$30 on top of that. If you volunteer your time to help USASNC run more efficiently, you get that money back. If you don't, they keep the extra money. It's a lot like a core charge at an auto parts place. You get the initail charge, but it is returned once you come back with the desired item. In this case the desired item is WORK.
In conclusion, I think there are plenty of options to make things better, I just see people that are more willing to complain than do anything to help. There will always be those people.
In addition to people being unwilling to help, it's also strange how reluctant people are to receive help. I recently received an email telling me of a junior camp at Camp Perry during the summer. I replied and stated I would be willing to help coach. The response was basically, "No, we have it covered". I know the involved people pretty well and it amazes me that help is being turned down. I was told there were two coaches, yet the document stated the camp is limited to 25 shooters. 25:2 ratio...I would think the more coaches the better, but what do I know.
Hmmmmm...is that why people are unwilling to help USA Shooting?
Mike Douglass
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Richard Newman
USAS state of the Sport
I'm glad to see folks looking at the issue, but maybe I haven't been too clear about some of my points. Marc Orvin feels that the only thing needed is better communication. While I agree that much better communication is needed, it's not the only problem I see. The big problem isn't that USAS isn't trying. They obviously are. But they need to take a leaf from their performance oriented business plan approach to overall operations, and develop a plan for shooter recruitment and development. If there is one, I don't see it. What I see is a set of separate steps, each of some value, but not integrated to get the most interactive results, and which doesn't appear to hit a major part of what I consider the BIG problem. We MUST reach out to the rest of the competitive shooters in the US. Bob Mitchell says that club and individual membership is at about 5000. This represents a tiny percent (less than 5%, I believe) of the competitive shooters in this country. When you hold a Jr. Olympic camp or competition, you are dealing with those who already know and participate in our sport. Those pro shooters they brought in are a good resource, but not too many compete in their sport compared to the regular bullseye shooters.
Aurorapolice, when I lived in Evergreen, my kids shot with a club in Lakewood. Since I was a volunteer official with the team at the time, I took them with me to the Springs on occasion. So they knew about the different types of shooting. But few people at their club did, and other shooters from other clubs didn't know either. That is a big problem. Yes, communication and marketing are badly needed, but it takes a plan to make them effective, and that plan has to include incentives and rewards for those who do try International shooting. And it needs steps to help ease those interested into the sport, without requiring massive infusions of money by either shooters or clubs. Sue the yield is low. That's true in any sport when you talk about elite athletes re "hackers". But without the beginners, and those who enjoy the sport but know they will never be Olympic champions, the yield is zero.
What all this is directed at is trying to get some out-of-the-box thinking going to generate some fresh ideas, which hopefully will lead to some more effective growth of Olympic shooting in the US.
OK, Ive had my say, and yes, I do belong to USAS, even though at my age I am hardly competitive. If someone wants to pick up on these ideas, I will be happy to discuss them further in more detail. If not, then I'll give it a rest.
Richard Newman
Aurorapolice, when I lived in Evergreen, my kids shot with a club in Lakewood. Since I was a volunteer official with the team at the time, I took them with me to the Springs on occasion. So they knew about the different types of shooting. But few people at their club did, and other shooters from other clubs didn't know either. That is a big problem. Yes, communication and marketing are badly needed, but it takes a plan to make them effective, and that plan has to include incentives and rewards for those who do try International shooting. And it needs steps to help ease those interested into the sport, without requiring massive infusions of money by either shooters or clubs. Sue the yield is low. That's true in any sport when you talk about elite athletes re "hackers". But without the beginners, and those who enjoy the sport but know they will never be Olympic champions, the yield is zero.
What all this is directed at is trying to get some out-of-the-box thinking going to generate some fresh ideas, which hopefully will lead to some more effective growth of Olympic shooting in the US.
OK, Ive had my say, and yes, I do belong to USAS, even though at my age I am hardly competitive. If someone wants to pick up on these ideas, I will be happy to discuss them further in more detail. If not, then I'll give it a rest.
Richard Newman
Mike: you picked on the wrong guy
Telling Stan Pace "it is your responsibility" Was the wrong person. Stan Pace ran the Junior program at his local club. He restarted ISSF pistol (AP & FP) in Virginia by holding the only PTOs in the state. He is the reason probably 15 to 20 others joined USAS. He is the reason I am holding PTO's in Virginia.
Target costs and any other costs for the matches comes out of my pocket to get the program started. I have stayed with Doc Sexton's help at the nationals. I have reserved two room already in Atlanta to encourage some of our local shooters to attend.
I agree with your point that rather than sit around and complain on TT, more of us need to be active and take action. Some of us do the positive things you are talking about. Stan Pace is one of them.
Target costs and any other costs for the matches comes out of my pocket to get the program started. I have stayed with Doc Sexton's help at the nationals. I have reserved two room already in Atlanta to encourage some of our local shooters to attend.
I agree with your point that rather than sit around and complain on TT, more of us need to be active and take action. Some of us do the positive things you are talking about. Stan Pace is one of them.
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Steve Swartz
I read the same articles.
Something a little different jumped out at me.
According to two people in leadership positions at USAS, there are only two kinds of shooters:
1) Those who are already on the national team; and
2) "Hobbyists" I believe was the word
Apparently, people like Bill Demarest and John Zurek are/were climbing uphill, against a steep slope of bias.
I know this bias exists at the highest level of USAS- because they themselves freely admit it. This bias also exists at various levels within the current/ex team members.
Yes, "Shoot the Scores" is the key.
Question: Why is there such a large "air bubble" between the fully supported shooters and the "hobbyists?"
Would there be any advantage to increasing the pool of 570-580 shooters? How about increasing the pool of 560-570 shooters?
Would there be any advantage to enlarging the pool of shooters at the top end?
Hmm . . . where would the shooters for this expanded pool come from?
Oh yeah- let's get more juniors shooting; then slam them into the brick wall when they turn 21. More hobbyists; yeah; that's the strategic plan.
They still reading Catch-22 in high schools?
Steve Swartz
Something a little different jumped out at me.
According to two people in leadership positions at USAS, there are only two kinds of shooters:
1) Those who are already on the national team; and
2) "Hobbyists" I believe was the word
Apparently, people like Bill Demarest and John Zurek are/were climbing uphill, against a steep slope of bias.
I know this bias exists at the highest level of USAS- because they themselves freely admit it. This bias also exists at various levels within the current/ex team members.
Yes, "Shoot the Scores" is the key.
Question: Why is there such a large "air bubble" between the fully supported shooters and the "hobbyists?"
Would there be any advantage to increasing the pool of 570-580 shooters? How about increasing the pool of 560-570 shooters?
Would there be any advantage to enlarging the pool of shooters at the top end?
Hmm . . . where would the shooters for this expanded pool come from?
Oh yeah- let's get more juniors shooting; then slam them into the brick wall when they turn 21. More hobbyists; yeah; that's the strategic plan.
They still reading Catch-22 in high schools?
Steve Swartz
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Ok...
I would not refer to Bill and John as "hobbyists". They have put far too much time in on the range to be called that. It may have started off as a hobby, just like the rest of us, but they put in the training and hard work to get to the level they have acheived. Please do not insult their hard work by calling them "hobbyists"...they are elite athletes.
Two thoughts
Two thoughts/curiosities...
How does the cost of shooting the full week at Camp Perry compare to the cost of Nationals? Since Benning doesn't have the housing, let's just compare the cost for the registraton for the matches. Does anyone have the 2004 numbers handy?
Lots of us shoot bullseye, even though we may never make High Master. We enjoy progressing through our personal bests and classifications, setting goals for ourselves and making them. Our goals take into account the other realities of our lives at the time (career, family, other interests etc). We pay our dues to NRA and our state Associations so we can shoot NRA/state sanctioned matches. We pay our match fees. We get ourselves to and from the matches, sometimes paying for a hotel along the way. Heck, some of us even make additional donations to the NRA, our state association or local clubs/ranges as the need arises.
Why are some of us SO unwilling to have the same attitude towards USAS? If you went on bullseye.org and said "If I can't go to Camp Perry for free, I'm not going" or "My club isn't hosting an NRA sanctioned match until they give us the $ for turning targets" you'd be thoroughly roasted.
The bullseye system had to be grown, it has had a lot of time to do it and a lot of grassroots NRA members gave $, sweat and time to grow it. USAS hasn't even been in its present form for 10 years. We've got growing pains right now. We can complain about them, or get out of bed and stretch into the growth so the pain will ease.
As there are more participants, there will be more local matches. If there's enough particpants at a local match, there will be awards at all classification levels. We will compete against those at our own levels and train to move to the next level, as our lives let us. Some of us will come to a point in our lives where our top priority will be to make AA classification and go for all the glory at Benning. Some of us will donate $ to help our more advanced competitors with their dreams. Hopefully we'll all have a good time shooting.
How does the cost of shooting the full week at Camp Perry compare to the cost of Nationals? Since Benning doesn't have the housing, let's just compare the cost for the registraton for the matches. Does anyone have the 2004 numbers handy?
Lots of us shoot bullseye, even though we may never make High Master. We enjoy progressing through our personal bests and classifications, setting goals for ourselves and making them. Our goals take into account the other realities of our lives at the time (career, family, other interests etc). We pay our dues to NRA and our state Associations so we can shoot NRA/state sanctioned matches. We pay our match fees. We get ourselves to and from the matches, sometimes paying for a hotel along the way. Heck, some of us even make additional donations to the NRA, our state association or local clubs/ranges as the need arises.
Why are some of us SO unwilling to have the same attitude towards USAS? If you went on bullseye.org and said "If I can't go to Camp Perry for free, I'm not going" or "My club isn't hosting an NRA sanctioned match until they give us the $ for turning targets" you'd be thoroughly roasted.
The bullseye system had to be grown, it has had a lot of time to do it and a lot of grassroots NRA members gave $, sweat and time to grow it. USAS hasn't even been in its present form for 10 years. We've got growing pains right now. We can complain about them, or get out of bed and stretch into the growth so the pain will ease.
As there are more participants, there will be more local matches. If there's enough particpants at a local match, there will be awards at all classification levels. We will compete against those at our own levels and train to move to the next level, as our lives let us. Some of us will come to a point in our lives where our top priority will be to make AA classification and go for all the glory at Benning. Some of us will donate $ to help our more advanced competitors with their dreams. Hopefully we'll all have a good time shooting.
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
What a post...
So many different ideas have come from this thread that it may be impossible to settle it all.
I am very concerned about the future of USAS and how competitive the US will be in the future. One point I want to make is that I have issue with people who continue to complain about USAS, but are unwilling to help. Yes there are people out there like Stan Pace and Jay Vergenz, who I know personally, that work their tails off to promote the sport. My posts are not directed at them.
I do not believe you are entitled to comlpain about the organization merely because you pay $35 a year. I think what entitles you to do so, is if you have a legitimate suggestion and you are willing to help impliment that change, not just leave it up to USAS to figure out. I also believe being an "elite" athlete working his/her way toward winning medals for USAS also entitles you to voice your opinion.
The other concern I have is the number of complaints made where poeple demand changes that will affect the selection of the National Team and specific International teams. I do not believe a person who is not willing to put in the time at the range his/herself, it allowed to complain about how teams are selected or how selection matches are conducted.
That is what I was trying to bring across with my posts.
Mike Douglass
I am very concerned about the future of USAS and how competitive the US will be in the future. One point I want to make is that I have issue with people who continue to complain about USAS, but are unwilling to help. Yes there are people out there like Stan Pace and Jay Vergenz, who I know personally, that work their tails off to promote the sport. My posts are not directed at them.
I do not believe you are entitled to comlpain about the organization merely because you pay $35 a year. I think what entitles you to do so, is if you have a legitimate suggestion and you are willing to help impliment that change, not just leave it up to USAS to figure out. I also believe being an "elite" athlete working his/her way toward winning medals for USAS also entitles you to voice your opinion.
The other concern I have is the number of complaints made where poeple demand changes that will affect the selection of the National Team and specific International teams. I do not believe a person who is not willing to put in the time at the range his/herself, it allowed to complain about how teams are selected or how selection matches are conducted.
That is what I was trying to bring across with my posts.
Mike Douglass
Re: What a post...
So... as a non-member of the organization, you are telling the members who should or shouldn't have an input into how THEIR organization is run. The absurdity of your opinions is monumental!aurorapolice02_11 wrote:So many different ideas have come from this thread that it may be impossible to settle it all.
I am very concerned about the future of USAS and how competitive the US will be in the future. One point I want to make is that I have issue with people who continue to complain about USAS, but are unwilling to help. Yes there are people out there like Stan Pace and Jay Vergenz, who I know personally, that work their tails off to promote the sport. My posts are not directed at them.
I do not believe you are entitled to comlpain about the organization merely because you pay $35 a year.
//----------------------\\
That is what I was trying to bring across with my posts.
Mike Douglass
Put your money where your mouth is, or leave the discussion to those of us who love the sport enough to do so. Those of us that are certified officials, match directors, range operators, program sponsors, and just plain boosters, even though we will never have an opportunity to be elite shooters. At least we have $35 worth of concern about international shooting.
Larry -
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aurorapolice02_11
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:33 am
- Location: Denver, CO
Good point...
Ok, so I am not a member, but does that not allow me to "call out" the members that like to complain and do nothing to help? My membership in USAS has no bearing on whether I can or cannot make a point concerning this topic.
Keep in mind, "I" am not complaining about USAS, I am pointing out that that some of the membership should do more than just complain. I suppose your point about my membership would make more sense if I was complaining about the organization.
Feel free to contact me personally if you would like to discuss this further Larry.
Mike Douglass
Keep in mind, "I" am not complaining about USAS, I am pointing out that that some of the membership should do more than just complain. I suppose your point about my membership would make more sense if I was complaining about the organization.
Feel free to contact me personally if you would like to discuss this further Larry.
Mike Douglass