Enlarging the International Shooting competitor pool

[Richard Newman]

A couple of weeks ago (~9/15) on the Inerview with Bob Mitchell thread, I commented that 'we' need to take action so that the clubs and shooters -junior and adult- who know nothing of the ISSF or USAS can at least get some exposure to the game. I made some suggestions, and expected a large number of answers - pro and con. Instead, I got only one friendly response, from Bob Foth. I am disappointed and wondering why??? On other threads there have been discussions of individual programs scattered around the country which may include some Olympic style shooting - or may not. But my major point was that we need an organized national program led by USAS, an outreach program to all those other clubs, NRA, 4-H, or unaffiliated.
Am I wrong? Is there a lively ongoing program, involving many clubs around the country that I don't know about? Or are people thinking I have the wrong answer? Or have many just given up? Is USAS uninterested (I know there are money problems at USAS, but...)? The silence has been overwhelming.
The one thing I do know is that we can't win Olympic Gold without a pool of well trained competitive athletes, fighting for the chance to represent the U.S. If those athletes don't even know there is an Olympic possibility, and how to go for it, we are in deep kimchi. And the Koreans will be on the medal stand.
Does anyone have anything -preferably constructive- to say?
Richard Newman

[Bill]

I too have posted - and heard little. One of three possibilities:

1. This is a very small forum, and thoughts somehow need to get
relayed via another medium. Direct letters? Another site? I have no clue.

2. People of authority read this, but are limited because they cannot
take an official position by posting on this (or similar) web site.

3. People of authority can respond, but choose not to, because there are no simple answers to the "issues" at hand.

I suspect it's a combo of #2 and #3, so keep posting, and maybe someday we'll hear from those who are (supposed to be) leading these initiatives and programs. In the mean time, keep doing your best, your own way, to keep kids shooting. Even if it means taking them out plinking, you will at least have taught them gun safety.

Bill


Bill

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

I just found out today, that one of the Kansas Shooting clubs in Tonganoxie KS (near Kansas City KS) is holding both International Pistol and International Rifle matches this year. They may be for Juniors only, but I'm not sure. December 2004, January 2005, and February 2005, I think.

I'll email her and see if she will post to the sight. Her boy said he reads the sight.

Mike
Wichita KS

[Bob Foth]

Richard,
Would you please e-mail me?
bobfoth@juno.com
Thanks!

[Alex]

I read this all all other posts like it and I too wonder. I am a pistol shooter and we too have a serious problem, maybe we’re worst off. I don’t know of any DCM or Junior programs for pistol shooters. Having said that I think we (the concerned)are overlooking something.
The total amount of international style shooters is in reality so small, it’s difficult to find a viable “base”. I know very few shooters, rifle or pistol, that won’t go out of their way to help any one that’s interested. I really think we need to expose more people.

In pistol shooting we need to get clubs to shoot on ISSF targets and courses. How about SP or FP instead of an NRA 900? Forget about the silly rule about single loading in FP. Or Intl CF instead of a NRA CF, even with their .45s if they want? With the advent of electronic targets in world level matches turning targets are no longer necessary, at least at club level. And what’s wrong with shooting 10, 8, 6 & 4 seconds? Pick three to shoot and have at it. Electric timers would be nice but not absolutely necessary. And lets reach out to the not so young shooters who may be able to help and increase our base. I can't help but believe that some of these new shooters would make the leap to "world class" firearms and get real serious about ISSF shooting.

I know that there’s some out there wondering, how are winners going to be determined? How about you pay a lesser amount to just shoot for score (as some clubs already do)? I for one only care about shooting MORE. While I’m at it, I’m going to ask all rifle shooters that have indoor ranges that may be used by pistol clubs (for rent?) to contact somebody (USAS, NRA, etc) after all we are ONE National Shooting Team. How about instead of rent we donate time to run rifle matches (or visa versa). I’ll be first to volunteer. I live in NE PA (the Scranton area) and if I can help run a match (rifle or pistol) or take out the trash let me know.

I was at the first (I believe) training session for all disciplines (Labor Day Weekend ’79 at the OTC in CO) and it was the most incredible experience of my life. Let’s work together some more for the sake of the Shooting Sports.

God bless and good shooting,

Hold center,
Alex

[ky_air_pistol]

not sure what your calling the not so young shooters but im 24 and am just getting in to the 10m air pistol. I have been all over the net looking for info, so far this is the only forum i have found. and would like to find out about shoots around me.

im currently in Afghanistan with the Ky guard. cant wait to get home and start shooting 10s

[Alex L]

Here in Victoria, Australia, we have a very successful Postal competition. It runs for 5 rounds, with one or two events per week during a 6 week cycle. Shooters compete in Club teams, and shoot at their home clubs, and the scores are posted/emailed in to a central Competition Controller.
Everyone shoots the same event on the same day - just at different venues. Clubs can enter multiple teams of 4 shooters, and the teams are placed in groups depending on their ability, so lower grade shooters can participate as well as the top shots.

It is a round robin competition. The top 4 teams at the end of the final round then compete shoulder to shoulder in the Grand Finals, with the winner taking the Perpetual Shield for the year.
The team members receive gold, silver or bronze medals, which are specially made and engraved for the Finals.

It is very popular, and there is a lot of competition within each club to get into the Club Team. About 30 Clubs within this State enter the "Postals", and it is the only Team event of it's kind in Australia. It has been running, now, for over 20 years, and is as popular as ever. We have everyone from Olympians to novices competeing at their home club.
Not only ISSF events are in the "Postals", but also Black Powder, Sevice Match and Action Match, and other recognized events.
My club is probably the most fortunate in the State, as we have Olympians past and present as members, so our Postal team has a head start! Currently we have 6 Perpetual Shields hanging on the Clubroom wall for this year.

The land mass of Oz is approximately the size of the US, but with only 20 million people. However here in Victoria, the 2nd smallest State, we have about 2500 shooters, but at Open competitions there are about 80 regulars who travel to the various venues. A Russian coach has been employed by Pistol Australia to improve the standard of shooting in the country.
Perhaps a postal competition might be the answer. After a while, shooters get more used to competing, and then try to go to Open shoots.
Have a look at www.yarra.100megsfree5.com and see where I shoot.
Alex L.

[Yogi]

Richard, one way to start teaching young shooters about Olympic style shooting is to have collegiate shooting go under the USA Shooting banner and their rule book. Further, college shooting clubs should be led by quality coaches of good character, most are, who would establish outreach programs to further shooting sports in their area. The upward flow of shooters from elementary position air rifle to smallbore to college breaks down along the way, with large gaps in skill levels on the way up. There is no continunity of upward skill levels with all the organizations staking out their piece of the pie. It has become a matter of organizational survival and program survival instead of what's good for America and shooting sports.

[Richard Newman]

Yogi,
It would certainly be good for the NCAA collegiate shooting to include ISSF events. I very much doubt that they would drop their current events, but it certainly would be possible to add some international events to the list. That might be achievable. However, I would like to see the exposure to international shooting at a much younger age. By the time shooters get to college age, there has already been a 'filtering' effect. There are only about 60 - 70 schools which give shooting scholarships. What about those kids who don't go to college, or have to go to a college with no shooting program? We don't want to lose them. If they have experience in ISSF shooting, they may chose to continue it outside school. If they haven't had the experience, they obviously are unlikely to do so. This is why I suggest USAS start making the connection with the junior clubs as well as with adult clubs. In many cases the children of the adult club members are in a junior program. This way we can reach them both.
Richard Newman

[Pat McCoy]

Another problem is retaining older shooters who can no longer use aperture sightsto good effect due to eye problems. NRA allows "any sight" matches so the older shooters continue runnig matches for all to participate in. USAS needs to allow "any sight" matches after a certain age (50,55,60?) to retain older shooters who do the work of running the matches. I've talked to Dave Johnson about this, but have had no feedback (but new rule book is just about to come out).

[Lee Sellers]

Any sight is a grand idea. It should not be limited by age however. Vision problems can come at any age.

Run them as seperate classes, and limit the championship appelations to the metallic site group and it would be fine (much like the NRA does it now).

[Guest]

Any sight is the fastest way to eleminate iron sights completely from the scene. Look to Bullseye for a grand example.

Any sight is a grand idea. It should not be limited by age however. Vision problems can come at any age.

Run them as seperate classes, and limit the championship appelations to the metallic site group and it would be fine (much like the NRA does it now).

[TWP]

USAS already has programs with the 4H and Scouting.

They hold Sporter and Precision matches and championships (Junior Olympics in both International and 3P)

Unfortunately there are very few matches listed on their we site.

The opportunities are there. There are quite a few clubs around the country shooting precision.

There are a lot of youth BB Gun and sporter programs out there, it's just their coaches don't want to put up with the expense of precision shooting.

I think it takes the willingness of the coaches to push their kids to compete in the matches.

I also think we need to get the local coaches running more matches, registering them with USAS, and advertising them.

We also need to get the coaches and programs that are out there talking with one another more.

[nneely]

I'll have to disagree with Guest on this point. While the majority of the bullseye shooters in the local league shoot with red-dots, there's certainly a percentage that don't use them. In a league I shot in previously, the vast majority used iron sights. It's not a given that allowing 'any sight' will eliminate iron sights completely, but if allowed, there will certainly be a large percentage using red-dots. If, in the end, it means more people are coming to int'l matches and generates interest in the sport, then I'd call it a worthwhile change.

Any sight is the fastest way to eleminate iron sights completely from the scene. Look to Bullseye for a grand example.

[race1911]

I believe the easy way around the "iron versus red dot" sights is to have separate divisions that way everyone can compete, sight impaired , agewise, whichever preference or entertain yourself shooting both divisions

[mikeschroeder]

I'll have to disagree with Guest on this point. While the majority of the bullseye shooters in the local league shoot with red-dots, there's certainly a percentage that don't use them.

Hi

I'm one of the percentage, and I started out with an Ultradot. The reason I quit using the dot was that I want to make a run at Distinguished before my eyes go. I'm already 43 so I'm giving it until 50 then I'm putting dots on everything. I just started, so I'm not too good yet, but I don't see learning to shoot iron unless you shoot iron.

Mike
Wichita KS

[Jack]

Yo Mike. Don't be too quick to give up on irons. Get a good Rx lens to see the front sight and keep working on it. I'm 55, just legged out, and with a lens can use the irons still pretty good. I believe working with irons transfers skills to the dot much better than dot to irons even at my age. Jack H

[Jack]

USAS already has programs with the 4H and Scouting.

snip

I also think we need to get the local coaches running more matches, registering them with USAS, and advertising them.

We also need to get the coaches and programs that are out there talking with one another more.

Sadly, some places have no programs and no coaches. My location is lucky to have a modest but good Bullseye program. Still no coach though.

[TWP]

NRA Coaches Training Class in Fairfax VA at NRA HQ on 4-5 December.

I'd never shot a competitve rifle match before my daughter showed an interest in the sport (had been hunting and shooting handgun matches for years though). I took the class a couple of years ago and have been an assistant coach on her team since then.

All it takes to be a coach is a committed individual. The training opportunities are out there.

Here's a list of Coaches training classes by the NRA.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... oachSchool

[Guest]

As you stated the majority use dots, and there is absolutely zero evidence that allowing optics will gain more participation. I wished it was true but it is not. Optics produces slightly higher scores and that is why people want them. Optics going head to head with irons is the fast way to eliminate irons on the competitive level.

I'll have to disagree with Guest on this point. While the majority of the bullseye shooters in the local league shoot with red-dots, there's certainly a percentage that don't use them. In a league I shot in previously, the vast majority used iron sights. It's not a given that allowing 'any sight' will eliminate iron sights completely, but if allowed, there will certainly be a large percentage using red-dots. If, in the end, it means more people are coming to int'l matches and generates interest in the sport, then I'd call it a worthwhile change.

Any sight is the fastest way to eleminate iron sights completely from the scene. Look to Bullseye for a grand example.