New(ish) shooter with questions on sights

[random_guy7531]

Hello all!

Glad I found this forum! I've been playing the action pistol games (USPSA / IPSC / IDPA, etc.) for several years now at a decently high level, and I recently decided to take up some more olympic style training. The rapid fire event in particular interested me, but with no place to really train it, I instead picked up an Air Venturi V10 match air pistol (since I can just train that at home!). However, I've run into a couple of issues I hope folks can help me with!

• Iron sighted divisions in IPSC etc. pretty much universally use fiber front sights and black rears. I'd like to get as close as I can to this setup in an olympic pistol, both because it's what I have experience with, and also because of the point below. Rule 8.4.1.3(a) does state:

  Only open sights are allowed. Sights using fibre optic, light enhancing or
  reflecting colour surfaces are prohibited. Optical, mirror, telescope, laser-beam,
  electronically projected dot sights etc. are prohibited

  However, this does not seem to rule out the use of colors other than black for the front sight. Would a brass bead front sight, for example, be permitted? Would painting the front sight a matte red? I am essentially at a loss at how to define 'reflecting colour surfaces'. If the goal of the rule is to prohibit Nydar or Occluded-eye style of sights, then I guess Im good to go, but otherwise, where is the limit? Does anyone currently shooting at a high level have brass or perhaps in-the-white steel sights?
  -
• With a black target/black front sight/ black rear sight I essentially get zero contrast, making it impossible to determine point of aim. How are people addressing this? A contrasting color of front sight would obviously solve this (see above), but is there some other answer Im missing here? A 6' oclock hold zero might address this, but that effectively makes it impossible to train on reduced distances/targets (amongst other issues). During practice, I observe significantly better results using targets where the 9-X rings are whited out as opposed to the full-black versions, simply because I can actually *see* my sights. Is a center-hold really not common in olympic shooting (because its pretty much universal in the action sports haha)!

Thanks for whatever pointers folks can provide!

[Ziperix]

"Is a center-hold really not common in olympic shooting"

Yes, pretty much everyone uses sub 6 hold, it's just superior to other holds. I honestly have no idea if there's a rule that states the sights need to be black but I've never seen anyone shoot with colored front/rear sight and to be honest "reflecting color surfaces are prohibited" sounds like "anything other than black is prohibited".

[Gwhite]

I have used an orange chalk mark on my front sight for decades, and the students I coach often find it useful to help them focus on their front sights. Nobody at equipment check has ever complained that the chalk was 'reflective' and violated the rules. The idea is NOT to have an orange sight, but to give it some character to focus on. Once you get too used to it, wipe it off with your thumb & put on a different mark.

Very few Olympic shooters use a center hold for precision events, like air pistol or the precision stage of Sport Pistol. Center hold is used for Rapid Fire and the Rapid stage of Sport Pistol. A sub-six/area hold is preferred for precision shooting.

There has been mention on the forum here that Rapid Fire is going away as an Olympic event. I've had this confirmed by a member of the US Olympic team. The target requirements make it prohibitive for most ranges, so it's difficult to find ranges to practice, or that hold matches. Nobody knows what sort of event will replace it, but the decision will probably be made this Fall.

[random_guy7531]

Thanks for the input! I definitely got the vibe that rapid fire was on its way out - that's more than a bit unfortunate, as its definitely the closest to IPSC or any of the other disciplines Ive found fun in the past.

Also glad to hear about different colored sights - Ill try out the chalk tip for sure at least, but if it works Ill probably figure out something more long term (it wouldn't be the first pistol I have with nail polish on the sight haha!)

Some follow up questions though re: 600 hold.

Very few Olympic shooters use a center hold for precision events, like air pistol or the precision stage of Sport Pistol. Center hold is used for Rapid Fire and the Rapid stage of Sport Pistol. A sub-six/area hold is preferred for precision shooting.

Why is this the case? Personally, it seems like an incorrect approach to the task - instead of requiring 3 points of perception (front sight on center, left gap, right gap), a 6 oclock hold requires 4 ( + distance below the desired PoI). Also, it now means that training at closer distances is effectively impossible - not only will the target need to be scaled, but its height *and* the guns zero must be changed. Even further, those changes are based on the shooters actual physiology, not just to some fixed multiplier, and it introduces the potential for those physiological changes to affect training goals.

Are competitors performing such wild re-zeros between practice/dry-fire and competition distances that frequently? Is the 600 hold purely an artifact of 10m air pistol target distances being so fixed over time, and everyone using black sights on a black target? I don't really see where any increased precision may be coming from to be honest, and it also seems like any perturbation to setup introduces confounding variables to the training problem.

If I see any success in using center hold and a colored front blade, I will likely continue with that for now, even if just for my own edification, but I'd be interested to hear from coaches why this became the meta (or perhaps more usefully, why the more general zeros used in other disciplines are *not* the meta).

Thanks!

[Grippy]

Not sure I follow the rezeroing issue? I don't think people commonly live fire at other distances than 10m. For dry fire it doesn't really matter since you aren't observing where the gun hypothetically shoots anyway. Except maybe if you use a SCATT but then you zero that and not the sights.

In 28 years of AP shooting that has never come up for me. Worst case you do the same thing most people do on 25m where they just know how many clicks they need to adjust between precision and rapid fire stages.

[Ziperix]

With reduced targets you would also have to scale the pellets.. I would image most people have a way to live fire at 10min in their houses/backyards. When I lived in a small apartment I had to scale target to 5m but I would only use it for dry fire and then I would live fire at the range.

[Gwhite]

You can adjust the size of the scoring rings to account for the pellet/bullet diameter. We used to shoot free pistol at 50 feet instead of 50 meters, and the 10 ring was tiny to account for the bullet diameter.

Besides, unless you are competing at a reduced range, the score is not what is important. The size of your group & elimination of flyers is what you need to work on. If you master that, the scores will be there when you shoot at 10 meters.

[David M]

sight picture 70%.jpg (12.32 KiB) Viewed 11691 times

Sub 6 o'clock sight picture.
It does not matter what colour you put on your fore sight, because as we shoot from
an under cover shooting bay and and not in direct sunlight the sights just appear black.

Note/ The foresight is sharp and very black, has a square appearance and is about 70% the t width of t he target.
The rear sight is very slightly blurred and has a little grey tinge.
The light gaps under the target and on the side are equal.
The target is blurred and grey.

[David M]

Rapid_Aim.jpg (45.52 KiB) Viewed 11689 times

Rapidfire is nearly centre aim, just low of centre to see ther aiming marks.
Note/ The rear sight is now a lot wider the the sub 6 sights.
This allows a quicker pick up of the sights for the shorter times to shoot.

[Todd Kraemer]

Sub-6:00 allows greater aiming precision due to being able to see the light gap and level of front and rear sights. Center hold makes it difficult to see blade spacing and top of blade levels.

[rokada]

Some follow up questions though re: 600 hold. [...] Why is this the case?

In short, precise alignment of two dark/black parts (front and rear sight) on the dark/black) background is much more difficult than on the light/white background. Personally I see a lot of truth in this.

instead of requiring 3 points of perception (front sight on center, left gap, right gap), a 6 oclock hold requires 4 ( + distance below the desired PoI).

I see four points in each case: left gap, right gap, top alignment and point-of-aiming.

[Mike M.]

I shot with a front sight painted fluorescent orange for many years. Abandoned it only because MLAIC rules limit you to white or black. Having said that, a sub-six hold (and mine is a deep sub-six) works quite well. I persuaded one of our shooters to try it...and his scores promptly went up significantly.

[rokada]

Mine is kinda deep sub-six for air pistol and free pistol. For rimfire and centerfire it is closer to center-six.
Yeah, I know probably in theory ir should not be like that and I should have the same hold for all. But it seems that - since the distance between front and rear sight in my air and free pistols is significantly longer than in my RF/CF ones - seeing seemingly less movement of sights related to the target helps to keep my mind from panicking :)

[Gwhite]

Some follow up questions though re: 600 hold. [...] Why is this the case?

In short, precise alignment of two dark/black parts (front and rear sight) on the dark/black) background is much more difficult than on the light/white background. Personally I see a lot of truth in this.

instead of requiring 3 points of perception (front sight on center, left gap, right gap), a 6 oclock hold requires 4 ( + distance below the desired PoI).

I see four points in each case: left gap, right gap, top alignment and point-of-aiming.

You aren't supposed to think of it as a bunch of separate pieces. You want to maximize the symmetry by setting the distance below the black the same as the gaps on the sides of the front sight (see the image several posts ago by David M). You can train your brain to try to achieve and maintain that symmetrical pattern as a single image. When you do that, it actually offloads your brain a bit.

I'm not very good at it yet, but when I can do it, I can FEEL my brain relaxing a little.

Rifle shooters with aperture sights don't think about rear-sight, front sight and target at all. They just work at making everything concentric.

[rokada]

You aren't supposed to think of it as a bunch of separate pieces.

I agree with you. Actually all I wanted to say was that I see no difference in the number of factors that have to take into account no matter if you use the center hold or the six hold.

You want to maximize the symmetry by setting the distance below the black the same as the gaps on the sides of the front sight

Plus they say the front sight visible width should ideally be the same as visible diameter of the black circle, because that should make all this even easier.

[Gwhite]

<snip>
Plus they say the front sight visible width should ideally be the same as visible diameter of the black circle, because that should make all this even easier.

Correct, or at least close to the same width. Some pistols make that easier than others. Lots of higher end pistols now have adjustable width rear sight notches, so you can tune the gaps to suit. I don't recall anyone coming up with a continuously adjustable-width front sight. The closest I've seen is the three sided front post like on the Anschutz LP@.

[KZMNT]

If you're interested in any notable growth in this discipline I recommend getting used to the subsix hold, and a sight picture where the front post is a simple black color. I'd also recommend not worrying about "changing the zero" of the pistol, you're actually going to be shifting the sights constantly, because you're trying to hit an 11.5mm wide target as close to sixty (or forty) times as possible, and your body can't maintain the exact same position for so many shots, unless you're a statue.

[rokada]

Actually people are able to maintain the same body position for the duration of the whole event, be it 30, 40 or 60 shots. People train how to do this, and train how to stand in the same position every time they begin shooting, the similar way they train how to hold the grip the very same way each time. Myself I do not see any relation between the need to adjust sights and the time elapsed since the relay started.
However I quite often see the need to adjust sights during the preparation time. In most cases it's due to the lighting conditions. During the relay I sometimes adjust sight when sunny weather changes to cloudy or the other way round, and I notice hits consistently shifting in some direction (this happens most often on the open or semi open ranges). I guess everybody is aware that when target becomes illuminated by bright ligth (like direct sunlight) POI "magically" shifts up...

[KZMNT]

I would never advise a shooter to not adjust his sights based on shifting groups just because they should be able to stand in the same position in theory. I mean granted there are many things that can fix that, but sighting is one of them.

[Gwhite]

In my experience as a coach and team armorer for about 15 years, 95% of people who are constantly changing their sights are compensating for technique errors that come and go. Until they figure that out and fix those issues, they will never reach a particularly high level of proficiency. An elevation adjustment for different lighting conditions is one thing, but I see people also making significant windage "corrections" all the time. They frequently can't call their shots very well. Sometimes they don't understand that if they CAN call their shots and they are going someplace they don't like, that fixing it with a sight adjustment is a band-aid that will come back to bite them later.

Before age caught up with me and tremors kicked in, I would adjust my sights no more than a few clicks a year and shoot up to the mid-570's. I still don't adjust them much, but my scores have dropped a good bit. I can still usually call my shots within +/- 1 hour and +/- 1 ring, they just aren't in the middle as often...

I regularly work on pistols that have the sights mis-adjusted to compensate for significant technique issues. For example, I find that I shoot up and to the right with pistols being used by students who have developed a (somewhat) consistent trigger jerk...