FWB Models 2, C5, C10, C55, & C60 cylinder availability

[PaulB]

Is there a source of new CO2 cylinders for FWB Models 2, C5, C10, C55 and/or C60?
None of mine have failed. Have replaced the seals on a few.
Most are still working fine, some after almost 30 years.
Just trying to find some that are legal for USAS, CMP and SASP competitions.

[porkchop]

I didn't know you had to have new cylinders for Co2.

[m1963]

Try 10punkt9. They told me they could make cylinders for any air gun. (Including for air guns not listed in their catalog.)

https://www.10punkt9.de/shop/

If the German is difficult, try ordering through Buinger...
https://www.buinger.com/

[Gwhite]

I found an old Walther/Hammerli document that said that they consider the service life of both steel and aluminum cylinders to be 10 years. HOWEVER, they had a program where they would re-certify steel cylinders (like those typically used for CO2) for up to an additional 10 years, but no more than 20 years from the original manufacturing date. I don't think they have made cylinders in over 20 years, so the program is effectively dead.(see attached, translated from the German).

Walther Cylinder Info w 480K to AP40 Conversion.pdf

(224.94 KiB) Downloaded 268 times

I would contact FWB, and ask A) if they know of any sources for new cylinders, and B) if they have (or know of) a recertification program for the cylinders. If they are over 20 years old, you may be out of luck for re-certification.

As long as we are on the subject, does anyone know how the ISSF rules apply to Tau-7 CO2 pistols? If you use them with CO2 cartridges, I would think they would be OK. If you bulk fill them, the container of the CO2 is brazed into the pistol, and is not a separate cylinder. Presumably the bulk fill cylinders would have to be in-date, but I think you can still buy those new.

[spektr]

There is no 10 year DOT condemnation law for CO2 cylinders. They are in a different pressure vessel class than the High Pressure Air guns.
Shoot your CO2 until your tired of them.

[Gwhite]

We're not concerned with DOT. It's the interpretation of the ISSF rule that is the issue. The 10 year rule (6.7.6.2 g) of the ISSF says:

"It is the athlete’s responsibility that any air or CO2 cylinder is within manufacturer’s validity date (maximum of ten (10) years); this may be checked
by Equipment Control and advisory recommendations may be given;"

That says people who wish to compete at high level competitions with CO2 pistols need "in date" cylinders.

[spektr]

The entire reason that there is an ISSF rule on 10 year cylinders is that the EU and US laws on the handling and filling of HP air pressure vessels under 1/2 liter require that they be inscribed with a manufacturing date and condemned 10 years later as they are deemed by law to be uninspectable and ISSF and USAS weren't checking them. CO2 cylinders of the size on our guns, by law, are not required to do this as they are in a different PV class in the PED than the air cylinders... You can consult both the PED and DOT regulations to see what is driving the ISSf and USA Shooting.... In the US, the DOT regs are subordinate to the PED and use the PED as command source media. You also have to remember that it is not only the cylinder on the gun that must follow the laws, it also covers the shooters scuba or bulk fill CO2 tanks. Those tanks have different test/retest intervals different than the CO2 or HP air tanks on our guns that are non inspectable. SO, your interpretation that CO2 tanks on the pistols need manufacturing dates is incorrect as the law does not require those to be imprinted, the CO2 bulk fill tanks used on site by the competitor on the other hand ARE subject to the PED test/retest intervals for their pressure vessel class, and are imprinted with manufacturing dates, and must be in spec at the contest, so the rule IS correct in the wording, but the CO2 cylinders subject to being in date are not the ones on the gun as there is no requirement in the ped mark them.........

[Gwhite]

Try explaining that to the guy at equipment check at a big match... The rule is poorly written, but it's unlikely it will get fixed. Most CO2 pistols went out of production before the rule was put in place, so most CO2 cylinders aren't even dated.

So few people at high level competitions are still shooting CO2 that the ISSF probably doesn't care. Unfortunately, in the world of lawyers & insurance companies, the ISSF rules are now being enforced at lower level competitions.

[spektr]

I completely agree that the rule sucks, it needed to be written by people that know the isue instead of being a knee jerk reaction.

This rule pisses me off so bad that as soon as I get my foot back together, Im taking my CPM1 on the road instead of my P44.
Let them say no...... I dare them

[Chris__Colorado]

About 8 years ago, I bought a "new" FWB cylinder from .....
FWB! I think that's about the time the new cylinder rules went into effect, If I recall correctly.
Just contact FWB. A couple of emails and about a month later, I had a new CO2 cylinder.
Funny thing was, it was actually older than the original CO2 cylinders I had for my Model 2 (by date of manufacture), but was stamped/imprinted with a test date within a year of my order date.
It passed inspection at the Olympic Training Center, Colorado Springs for ISSF rule over several years and many matches/judges without any issues.
It ran me between between $200-$225, if I recall correctly.
I don't recall how I paid, and now having given it some thought, think I may have used Jim Evans as an intermediary, and paid him to pay his german contact? Memory is fading....either way, I was amazed and pleasantly suprised that FWB had parts for guns that old. My transactions with Jim were always first class. I'm not sure he is still importing airguns from Europe.
Chris
FWB Mod 2, IZH46, IZH46M,

[Rover]

So, many of you find this rule stupid and useless? You feel no need to comply with it?

Many gunsmiths have a set of numeral stamps. Have one "date" your cylinders for you.

I won't tell.

[Chris__Colorado]

Hi Rover,
As an engineer, I don't find the rule useless; hence I went and purchased a "new" cylinder in compliance with the rules.
Given today's litigious society, I'm certain FWB tested my new old cylinder to make sure it was safe. I just thought I'd share my very positive experience with FWB providing service and support decades later!
However, I when I coached, I didn't gamble with my athletes**

And while I may believe the risk is certainly very low for our pressure vessels, it's not zero. Having seen pressure vessels fail, it's cheap to get a new cylinder every 10 years (less than $30 per year over the life of the cylinder, under $3/month is cheap insurance to stay in compliance). When you price an ER room visit, not to mention possible lifelong injuries' sequela, the people I'm responsible for will always have valid cylinders.

Reminds me of an old joke
What happens when an engineer makes a mistake?
A front page news story!
A prime example is the “rapid unscheduled disassembly” that recently made the news (Musk's rocket). It's why engineers tend to be risk adverse LOL.

Don McMillans engineer comedies are great and I believe some of his videos are on youtube.

A recovering engineer
Chris

** But, I'll gamble with myself in using the old FWB CO2 cylinders when I shoot alone (since CO2 pressures are generally much lower than PCP pressures, and I know some people have modified the FWB Mod 2 to shoot with high pressure air--I did it for a little while, and then went back to CO2).
I generally charge any old out of service PCP cylinders to only 80-90% of normal filling pressure (just to minimize the risk)--but still use them (maybe a foolish decision).

Everyone's risk profile is different.
It's why the Darwin awards exist
https://darwinawards.com/

It's a recognition and award I hope to avoid for a long time, despite tempting nature all to often motorcycling, skydiving, scuba diving, three plus years in combat, etc.---I'm sure I stressed out my Guardian Angel more than a few times --might even be on my second one today ;-)
Older, perhaps wiser, but definitely feeling the injuries and indiscretions of my life's earlier adventures.

Essayons!
Chris

[porkchop]

Chris, if I were a cat with 9 lives to use up, I'd be on about 6 now. Some would be a direct result of my stupidity but 2 were resulting from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have matured some as I aged, but still catch myself thinking stupid in time to say stop.
I like the Darwinian Awards, thanks.
Stan

[Chris__Colorado]

Hi Stan,
I hear you about using up a bunch of lives...and
At least you have matured some :-)
Despite marrying late in life, by my (first and only) wife's assessment, I'm partially trained, and after 28 years, she doesn't want to start training a new husband from scratch LOL.
I try to be good 'cause despite being a better pistol shot than her, she runs circles around me in rifle and she's not even a shooter except on occasion. My son and I went to shoot a shilhouette match for fun and one of the guys cajoled her into participating. Another shooter loaned her a rifle. She won her first ever silhouette match using a borrowed rifle, scoring 48/50 and beating a bunch of old range guys--some which were obviously miffed LOL. But then, she's a country Texas gal :-)
Chris

GOOD NEWS: Getting back on track regarding cylinders, you can now travel check your air pistol and rifle cylinders as checked baggage on aircraft in the USA! Per the NTCSC Facebook page quoted below:

Reya Kempley is with Scott Kirkpatrick Pilkington Jr and Roy McClain.
Exciting news for the competitive shooting community…
A big change in national TSA policy is now official! Air cylinders for competitive shooting are allowed nationwide in checked baggage. Passengers can carry up to four. They must be unpressurized and within certain dimensions (24” long x 3” diameter). No special clearance required!
Most current competitors know that flying out of Colorado Springs airport with an air cylinder previously required clearance from TSA via USA Shooting. But there is more to the story…
Until now, TSA policy officially prohibited anyone from traveling with an air cylinder unless that person was a member of the Olympic Team or a Wounded Warrior. It was very restrictive. While only Colorado Springs airport enforced this rule in recent years, it was actually nationwide policy.
Some may remember the days when we had to ship air cylinders to matches ahead of time and back home at the end. Cylinders were confiscated at the airport. I managed a workaround while employed at USA Shooting, but it was tenuous.
It will take some time for everyone to get used to the new policy, including the TSA agents at the airport. So I advise all travelers to print out the document below and keep it in your gun case. You may need to politely educate.
As with anything like this, the work of those before me made it possible, and I’m especially grateful for guidance from Roy McClain. Many others contributed before I took the baton four years ago. It all started way back in 2005. We are now working on writing the history, so stay tuned.
Happy early Thanksgiving, fellow air shooters!! Now we can travel a little easier.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... GzeZYdwktI

[lamap]

Two years ago I bought one new from:

https://foest.eu/index.php?main_page=pr ... anguage=en

Comes with the date indication.

Best regards,

Luis