Shooting removed from 2022 Birmingham Commonwealth Games.

[Gunter]

quote from the above article:
"The only place shooting could have been held in total is in Bisley and Birmingham and the West Midlands are not prepared to put money in refurbishing that venue.
unquote


?????

Bisley has held the annual Imperial Meeting in July for 150 years - so are well qualified ! (about 1.500 shooters, if I remember correctly)
last time I was there everything was in good order and all the ranges working.
Actually better than in the 1970's/80's, when I competed in the Imperial Meetings.

So, what 'refurbishments' are they referring to? - or am I missing something?

Gunter
NRA (USA) Life 1974
British Pistol Club Life 1976
Nat'l Pistol Assn Founder Member
Kenya Centre Fire Pistol Champion 1975

[Alexander]

Hello Gunter, 44 years ago you were Kenyan champion in ISSF centrefire pistol (still the old rapid fire target back then). The club still used the small colonial-times "Baracke" (or in Bisleyan: "hut") near the Railways Social Club for .22 shooting back then; the wooden wall behind the former target backstops is riddled with bullet holes, and it is a wonder that scores not corpses of passers-by and revellers did not litter Uhuru Park back then. This still remains one of the oldest, if not THE oldest building of entire Nairobi.
But for CF pistol, you will likely have used the GSU range in Embakasi, I presume? What gun did you use?

In the meantime, Kenya Regiment Rifle Club has built its new indoor range next to the Nairobi Sailing Club (Nairobi Dam area), while bigbore handgun shooting is also done in Ngong Hills (with the Swiss Club) and at the NGAO range (original built for prison warders). I do not think that a single person is left shooting ISSF centre fire pistol, there is far more interest in IDPA and IPSC type shooting.

But we are rebuilding a .22 ladies' team, and are looking forward to the African championships this year. Commonwealth Games 2022 would be nice, since Kenyans regularly shoot in Bisley, but...

Best regards,
Alexander

[SlartyBartFast]

So, what 'refurbishments' are they referring to? - or am I missing something?

Well, that's what the stink needs to be raised for. Need to hold the Commonwealth Games organisers to the fire with budget comparisons between their reasoning, reality, and what could conceivably be done as an alternative.

If I understand correctly, a shooting event in Britain is essentially F'd if it's not part of a larger multi-sport competition. Play nice, offer a low-cost to the games or self-funded competition and perhaps keep it under the umbrella of the Birmingham games and have a Commonwealth competition at Bisley as an associated event.

Or, do as I suggested before and find a Commonwealth country with less draconian gun laws and existing infrastructure. Run it well, keep the costs down, embarrass the games organisers enough that future games will consider making room for the events, and not so much that you build up too much animosity.

But in the end IMO it's up to all sports to be able to self-fund and organise their own international competitions. Because the big multi-sport competitions will always be a mixture of tradition, popularity, and politics. All the up-and-coming sports are self-funding and organising to simply exist as well as show they belong, the old sports need to be prepared to do the same to avoid being left high and dry.

All seems so ridiculous when the London 2012 venues were initially hyped because they were supposed to be temporary, modular, and reusable.

[Gunter]

Hello Alexander & others,

I think it was ISU rules in those days - in a different life, hehe.

I was based on the coast outside Mombasa
and shot at the then new Bamburi Rifle club range.

The Kenya championship was shot at the Mathare (I think it was called) range on the outskirts of Nairobi,
if I remember correctly.

Do you remember old Brian 'Hawkeye' Hawkins?

He used to organise the Kenya team
and anything shooting in the KRA /KRRC

I used a Sig Hammerli P240 in .38WC

Regards
Gunter

some pic seems to double - can't get it to a single...

Edit:
while we're at it, here another pic I just found
same gun, a couple of years later together with the .32 and .22 conversions
and a Hoffman grip

the P240 in .38 was, in my opinion, the best CF target pistol ever made!
The same goes for Hoffman grips.

[ChipEck]

Nice.

Chip

[Alexander]

1. Very nice pics, Gunter. Thank you for the effort of reminiscing.
2. Bamburi range is still operational, though I am not sure whether there is ANY kind of ISSF type shooting anymore going on there.
3. KRA was subseded by KSSF a couple of years ago; friend of mine is a board member there. Yes, I recall Brian Hawkins; he died, sadly, from Diabetes complications. Kenya now hopes to vitalize shooting through hosting the next (not this year's) 10 metres African competition.
4. The good ole SIG 240; sometimes a problem in .38 Special, but a stalwart gun in .32 S&W long.
5. Very nice precision target !

Regards,
Alexander

[Gunter]

Alexander,

yes, very sad, Brian, but it was long on the cards.
onlymet once a year or less in later years, whenever he managed to get to the Bisley meetings.
He was a good friend.
He also had a nice 6" Python, if memory serves.

The Bamburi Club was formed in late 1974, if I remember correctly,
by Konnie Schmid (General Manager of African Safari Club (Hotels), a Mr Wood(y?) - can't remember any first name - a manager
of the Bamburi Cement Works, who kindly supplied the land it was built on, and myself.

The Coastal Commissioner (if that was the title - unsure now) - Elihu Mahihu, was friendly with the ASC and was
very helpful in obtaining the necessary permits for a shooting range.

I still have a couple of the official Kenya team pictures at Bisley from that time.

Some names:
I.D.Shepherd
W.O.I, J. Lerengei (He who stuck a rolled up 'detail' card into his admittedly fairly large holes in the earlobe! - and then, later, mainly after a couple of drinks! - couldn't remember where he had left it! - hehehe)
Abdulgani Tarmohamed
Clive Critchlow
Granville Davies (today lives 20 miles away near Tunbridge Wells)
B.H. Hawkins (Captain)
Capt. J. Mutua (Jean or something similar? - I seem to remember that he is also dead now, at a young age - very sad - nice chap!)
Cpl. F. Kimani (I can visualise his face & stature now, thinking of him! -same with the others, actually!)
and yours truly (Pistol)

Also, I still have a few cut outs from the Daily Nation from that time after we got back - hehe

It's nice to think back on times long past and remember the good days!
I am way over 70 now, so forgive me for seeming to boast - that's not my intention!
Just nice to remember it all - the more I write about it here, the more details seem to emerge from somewhere
deep in memory
Strange, really, as I seem to have problems remembering what I wanted to do upstairs, once I've climbed the stairs! - hehe

Edit: re SIG ham. P240 - yes, I seem to remember reading about 'problems' with the .38 - but I never had any problem with it.
I later (about 1978?) bought the then available .32 and .22 conversions
But! - the .32 never was as good as the .38! (for me at least) - difference (from memory): 585 with the .38, 575 to 580 with the .32

Now, that is on a good day! - not saying that I shot that on every occasion! - but I would have expected a 580 or very close
with .38 on a normal day - and I could never do that with the .32

Best regards
Gunter

[hurt]

Thank you Gunter for sharing the old days with us! So much fun and such good “guys” out there!!! At 55...i myself....wish i could jump back 30 years! I think i know more about what i could do!

[Gunter]

thanks.

I do apologize for hijacking this thread!

Best regards
Gunter

[Gunter]

just saw an item on BBC News - India is NOT going to take part in the Birmingham Commonwealth games
if shooting is removed!

Good on India!

Bloody Birmingham do-gooders anti shooting left-wing IDIOTS!!
(I get wound up very easily nowadays!) hehe

Gunter
NRA Life1974

[Hemmers]

So, what 'refurbishments' are they referring to? - or am I missing something?

The Lord Roberts Centre is totally unsuitable for the CWG (despite having been built for the 2002 Games), it is semi-derelict, the targetry needed replacing 5 years ago. Hell, they don't have have Guest Wifi for Range users (which is an issue because there's no cellular connectivity in the place). It's 2019 for heaven's sake.

A great deal of work would also need to be undertaken to secure the site to modern standards given its dispersed nature. Security bubbles, catering, merchandising, etc, etc.

You could sink several million into sorting out the basic infrastructure of the place and not even see where the money had gone.

The facts are:

* Birmingham wanted a (relatively) compact Games.
* They offered a reduced programme involving using an existing venue in Birmingham (so smallbore & airgun) which British Shooting & ISSF rejected
* Birmingham decided they were not willing to spend in excess of £10m sorting out a site in Surrey for a Midlands games.
* There is no actual evidence of anti-shooting feelings playing into the decision making process (only in the comments section of news articles!). It's a simple business decision that if BS are going to dig their heels in and insist that many millions be spent on a remote venue to accommodate fullbore (which is what it comes down to), then they can do without.

One of the supposed advantages of the London Olympics venues was they were modular and could be moved. Damned shame that plan didn't seem to have worked out. Because placing them in any host city in Britain should have become as simple as taking them out of storage, shipping, and setting them up.

Not quite. One of the advantages of the London Venues was that they were temporary, modular and rented, being made to go away again after the Games. They're not sat in storage somewhere mouldering. The point of the London Venues was that we did not end up with another white elephant like the Lord Roberts Centre at Bisley which nearly bankrupted the Governing Body trying to maintain it.

The shame at London was that the legacy from fixtures and fittings was a bit thin on the ground - for instance it would have been better if the targetry was bought (instead of rented in from Sius) and transferred to Bisley and other ranges after the event.

The thing to remember about the OG is there is no fullbore - if BS had been willing to accept a CWG programme without fullbore, then a London-style temporary venue could indeed have been arranged for SB/Air and even Clays. If you want 1000yd shooting however, there are only a couple of viable options in England - all a significant distance from Birmingham.

[gn303]

Somehow this decision doesn't surprise me. There was a lot of discussion in Belgium about the World Jamboree. Imagine the Scouts were allowed to shoot firearms at the Jamboree in West Virginia. It didn't matter that there was a personal trainer with each shooter. No, just the fact that the scouts had the possibility to shoot 'a deadly weapon' was over the edge!
Next world Jamboree is planned in South Korea. Mostly likely Taekwondo, Karate and Ju-Jitsu will be on the program. Kicking each others ass will be OK.
But shooting at a paper target is awfull.

[Alexander]

As has been narrated in other places (notably in various articles on the "Insidethegames" sports news website, but also in the [not publicly visible] Stirton Forum), there are earnest endeavours underway to snuggle shooting back to Birmingham, somehow. The problem in the past was British Shooting, who had also misled and goaded the ISSF.

Whether any such revindicated presence of the shooting sports would / could be
- a reduced or even much reduced program WITHIN the framing of the Commonwealth Games,
- a (extraordinary) so-called "Commonwealth Shooting Champonship" held at the same time, but structurally different from the Games,
- an ISSF event held in Birmingham or in Bisley, at the same time as the Commonwealth Games, with or without ICFRA elements, styled as a world cup or not,
that certainly remains to be seen. Maybe Hemmers can tell more?

Regards,
Alexander

[Hemmers]

- a reduced or even much reduced program WITHIN the framing of the Commonwealth Games

Technically the athlete quota has been filled by the other events, so the CWG Village is "full". There is no possibility of a reduced programme within the Games as an "official" event - if BS/ISSF were willing to contemplate a reduced programme then the time to do it was in the bid. Not after they rolled the dice and lost on their all-or-nothing bid.

- a (extraordinary) so-called "Commonwealth Shooting Champonship" held at the same time, but structurally different from the Games,
- an ISSF event held in Birmingham or in Bisley, at the same time as the Commonwealth Games, with or without ICFRA elements, styled as a world cup or not, that certainly remains to be seen.

The sticking point here is Pistols - the Home Office do not generally issue Section 5 permits except for major multi-sport Games (and supporting/test-events thereof). It's one of the reasons the UK would struggle to host a standalone Rifle & Pistol World Cup - aside from needing a suitable venue, the Home Office would be unlikely to play nicely on Pistols unless it was attached to a major prestige event that the Government was otherwise invested in. This would likely also be an issue for a stand-alone CSF Championships unless the CGF backed it and said "They can do a CSF at the same time as the Games, it's an official/sanctioned but separate event to the Games, please treat them as you would the Games for firearm permitting purposes".


The CSF Championships have traditionally been held 6 months ahead of the Games as a test event for the venue and volunteers in the same way that the ISSF will schedule a World Cup to test out the Olympic Venue a few months prior to the Games.

England could host a CSF as a thing in its own right (either coterminous to the Games if the CGF gave permission, or outside the exclusion window if they didn't) - but the question is whether the government would issue permits to run the pistol events for a CSF that is not testing for a CWG. Cartridge pistol might be the casualty in having some sort of CSF event (or be held on the Channel Islands/Isle of Man).

Also worth noting: Britain does not have a World Cup capable facility (unless the ISSF can make a significant financial contribution, which is not impossible since they offered a chunk of cash to subsidise CWG preparations). People talk about Bisley as "World Class" but this is not universally true. Fullbore yes, Clays yes. Rifle and Pistol: No.