Olympic Air Pistol and Free Pistol. Can we maintain both?

[DFWdude]

First, let me state for the record that I like Free Pistol (err, ISSF 50m Pistol). In the 80’s and 90’s I shot the game, and found it very challenging and satisfying, even though I never shot it well.

That said, I found the game frustrating. Not because of the equipment, which was easy to acquire. I shot a Drulov Mod.75, then a Pardini PGP-75 for a while. Eventually bought a beautifully blued TOZ-35 that I own today. Lots of pistol choices if you know where to look.

What made the game frustrating for me was the availability of range facilities. At that time, there were fewer than a handful of legitimate 50 meter ranges here in the US, compared with (shorter) 50 yard ranges. So the game, when offered, was seldom shot at the regulation 50m distance.

A uniquely American problem, I suppose. But was it really? 50m pistol is a .22 (5.5mm) caliber game, in part to make it universally accessible to shooters around the globe, because .22cal rimfire ammunition is less strictly regulated worldwide. But I wonder how many 50m ranges there are in the UK, all of Europe, or Russia, China, India, etc.

Accustomed to practicing Air Pistol in my basement, 10 meter range 4-5 nights a week, I began to feel that Free Pistol was beyond my reach as a sport I could ever practice at a similar level, simply because there were no 50m ranges within 500 miles of my home.

What to do?

Rather than quit FP altogether, I decided to tackle the practice range problem by scaling the game to what was available to me (my home) to get any practice at all.

So, circa 1991 or so...

Using my basement 10m range, I reduced an official, 50 yard FP Target to 10 meter size. This reduction also accounted for the difference in calibers (4.5mm pellet vs 5.5mm bullet). The result was a target properly scaled for 10m use. (Very different from 10m Air Pistol)

Then, I built a spare air pistol into a dedicated air pistol made to Free Pistol specs… I modified a Pardini-Fiocchi K-60 air pistol. It used a thinner diameter, .177 K-58 barrel (10mm vs K-60's 12mm) with an extended blooper tube and muzzle brake. It used a short CO2 cylinder and 20-30 gram trigger. Pictured below.

Other than the switch from PB to pellet game and a new target, all other FP rules applied. I called the game "Air Pistol Free" It allowed me to practice a light trigger game with wrap-around grip hand pressure/technique in my basement. With the smaller target, I shot about as well as I could outside at 50 yards.

Of course, my little private game went nowhere.

However, fast forward 25 years...

Given the current (and ominous) ISSF discussions regarding the future of the 50m pistol game, I have to wonder whether the ISSF might consider revamping it (rather than eliminating it) into an airgun game using ranges compatible with the other 25m ISSF games. It could be shot at existing 10m, or 25m distance, or some standard between (15m, 20m). It could be shot with the current 10m target... at 25 meters. Imagine that?

Of course, there would be lots of details to consider in making the game appreciably different from the current 10m AP game. But it’s my opinion that going to shorter range facilities with a rescaled target will make the game infinitely more accessible than it has been in the past.

I enjoy both Air Pistol AND the 50m game. I would like to see both operate side-by-side, as they have for decades. But if this is not in the cards going forward, I would like to see the 50m game restructured to keep it going (and possibly growing through more accessibility).

It would be a shame to delete an Olympic shooting sport that has been around since 1896.

Does anyone here have contacts with the ISSF to whom you can refer this thread?

Respectfully offered by DFWdude (Bob Dye, Flower Mound, TX, USA)

[jmdavis]

Collegiate matches are shot at 50' and 25 yards. Most of the people who I know practiced on 50 yard bullseye ranges with scaled targets or on 25 yard ranges with scaled targets.


I think that the US has plenty of 50 yard ranges, that could be used for free pistol. As a matter of fact I think that there are probably more 50 yard ranges than dedicated airgun ranges in this country. But that is only an educated guess.

[hundert]

Interesting, but it's not gonna work, because there are no guns available. Nobody is going to buy an air pistol and have a grip made for that, people don't do that. I'm like the only person I know who has putty on my grip.

[Chia]

Interesting, but it's not gonna work, because there are no guns available. Nobody is going to buy an air pistol and have a grip made for that, people don't do that. I'm like the only person I know who has putty on my grip.

With 3d printing it's completely possible, and for an affordable price. Plus that'd just be a jury rig until the major manufacturers caught on.

Also, the above comments are talking about the U.S. AP and FP are never gonna be hugely popular here, and the shift wouldn't affect its interest in the states. But in other countries I could see this being a much more relevant issue (such as the U.K.). I'd imagine finding a 50-yard range would be considerably more difficult there outside of a military installation. AP, on the other hand, would have 10m ranges already set up for both pistol and rifle.

It would also be a great way to keep the spirit of FP alive (best gun possible in one hand at an extraordinarily difficult to hit target with iron sights) while combining two disciplines. I wouldn't consider it if the IOC wasn't axing FP, but honestly I think this is a good idea and a way to keep the sport alive in a compromise form. Better this than nothing!

It would also allow manufacturers to make money as they sell new innovations in the area. I think it's a good idea. And, finally, it'd help because free pistols look weird enough to be "cool" which would get some TV ratings. The only olympic shooting covered by the news source I watched was about free pistol and how they had these weird looking glasses and space-age guns.

Edit: You know me, so that's two. Granted it was playdough and just a filler until I got a new grip, but I have no problems puttying up my grip.

[hundert]

nobody's gonna order some 3D printed grips... nobody
nobody's going to reset the trigger between competitions, change grips etc, not going to work

[rmca]

DFWdude

That is a good effort but I think it won't stick.

The beauty of free pistol is the challange that the distance posses.
That's why you don't need much restrictions on the pistol.

Now, "standard" air pistol is probably one of the best ways to train for free pistol.
And if you don't have a range near you were you can shoot free pistol that would be my choice...

A rifle range should be long enough for you to get a target on a stand at 50m (or yards if it helps)... Surelly there are some of those in Texas, rigth? ;)

Anyway, let's hope that coller heads prevail and we can still have free pistol in the Olympics for a long time...

[DFWdude]

nobody's gonna order some 3D printed grips... nobody
nobody's going to reset the trigger between competitions, change grips etc, not going to work

Airgunners can be an odd lot. Some have only one air pistol (you can only shoot one at a time). While others have several APs. I have four 10m APs, myself, and I know others who have a dozen or more. Beyond easy to dedicate one (as I did) to a hypothetical game, just for shites and giggles if nothing else.

Of course, the stakes appear to be higher, now. The writing seems on the wall... It's clear (to me) the IOC wants to move away from "guns," firearms in particular. It also appears the IOC wants to promote more mixed gender games. It will never happen to Men's 100m dash. Better to impose this on an obscure game with less following, even if it has a 120 year tradition.

I hate mamby-pamby political correctness run amuk. But there you have it. Hell, make 50m pistol a mixed game with two-person, male/female teams... whatever it takes.

Either we adapt, or we lose.

[SlartyBartFast]

One competitor at my club shot free pistol. And we only have a 20yd range.
Just a matter of scaling the target.

The only real loss as I see it with shooting smaller targets closer is that eyeballing scoring is less accurate and inaccuracy due to aerodynamics and ballistics have less time to act.

[Jon Math]

Interesting, but it's not gonna work, because there are no guns available. Nobody is going to buy an air pistol and have a grip made for that, people don't do that. I'm like the only person I know who has putty on my grip.

I don’t know about that, I’m hard pressed to find serious shooters who don’t have some modifications like epoxy etc. to their grips.

As far as 3D grips why not? If it lets you try something new for short money and without waiting months for Rink or some other company to start producing them. Heck I just ordered some for a revolver as an experiment just because I want to try shooting mine with a different grip angle.

[DFWdude]

Updated photos in OP above...

I live in the Dallas TX area. Land is very expensive here, and is seldom dedicated to any gun-related use, unless it's in a flood plain location. Further, most ranges require membership. In short, there are less than ten, "50-yard" ranges available in the Dallas area within a 1-hour drive. And all but one are private clubs, or available only to "collegiate" shooters. The one "public" range is fine, if you don't mind practicing .22lr pistol on a firearm range next to some bloke blaaming away with his .338 Lapua sniper rifle.

In contrast, one can practice AP indoors at home if one is really serious about it. And likewise, a revamped Free Pistol format would permit the same opportunity to practice. As for the perceived challenge, go to a 25yd indoor range, and shoot your 10m AP on the current 10m ISSF target at 18 yards. Try to have fun. It will remind you of 50m FP.

Lots of excuses for NOT thinking outside the box when it comes to guns... There are those in the US who still swear by their M1911 .45cal pistols - some 30 years after the Military has moved to 9mm.

More discussion, please. I'm sure all of you have opinions...

[Dan Ide]

More years back than I care to remember, I picked up a few of Bob's air / free pistol targets. At that time, I did not have a readily available fire arms range but still needed to practice Free pistol. I practiced air pistol down the hall of my base housing unit, just trained dogs, cats, kids and wife to stay clear, and when I needed a change of pace, would hang up one of Bob's reduced targets. Did it help with Free? Maybe, it sure was different. I believe now, using one of his reduced targets and a long barreled, nose heavy IZZY 64, there might be some benefits to doing so again. There are not many free or even air pistol matches here in the Midwest, so any type of practice allows me to make to most of my opportunities. Postal matches seem to be the way to go for having fun. Net Competitor has both air and free plus other events, and 10 meter pistol competitions on face book is a fun postal. In a way, its funny, now I have a basement range for air, and ready access to both very good indoor and outdoor ranges to practice free pistol than I had on the USAF pistol team, just 25 years to late.

[Muffo]

None of it address the reason the issf are using to remove it from tge olympics.

[DFWdude]

None of it address the reason the issf are using to remove it from tge olympics.

Great. How about a link to a concise discussion of the reason(s).

[j-team]

None of it address the reason the issf are using to remove it from tge olympics.

Great. How about a link to a concise discussion of the reason(s).

Use your search function. It has been discussed until the cows come home in a number thread on this very forum!

[DFWdude]

None of it address the reason the issf are using to remove it from tge olympics.

Great. How about a link to a concise discussion of the reason(s).

Use your search function. It has been discussed until the cows come home in a number thread on this very forum!

I've found the petition thread in the shooter's lounge. (Why in the shooter's -- off topic -- lounge instead of here is silly) I have found little else....
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=54359

But at it's base, this thread is about simulating FP practice using a modified AP and a reduced target, shot at 10m.

[askernie]

FINALLY....

I have been thinking about this for soooo long.

Can you send me the reduced target!

Thanks

ernie "the eyeball" fuentes
askernie@yahoo.com

[askernie]

DFW...

Can I get some info on how you got that grip made?

ernie

[DFWdude]

DFW... Can I get some info on how you got that grip made? ernie

I made the grip myself from "Tuf-Fil" resin... https://www.freemansupply.com/products/

Topic discussed in posts 21-25 of this thread... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53842&p=262069#p262069

FINALLY.... I have been thinking about this for soooo long. Can you send me the reduced target!

It's been 20+ years and two home moves since I experimented with this, so I don't have any of the original targets handy. Somewhere in a box in an attic...

To get you in the ball-park, take the center bull insert from a 50m FP target and reduce it 80% on a copy machine (10m / 50m = 20%). Subtract a further 1-2 percent in size to make the .177 pellet comparable in size to the .22 game. (or is it add 1-2 percent?)

The resulting target will be noticeably smaller than the 10m AP target... IIRC, the 10 ring will be approx. 85-90% the size of the 10m AP target. A more difficult game.

[AlexFromPardini]

Realistically speaking Free Pistol is gone. No matter what argument is made, it is the least popular event to the public. If we do not maintain the publics interest, since shooting does not get much air time, then it will eventually fail to be in the Olympics.

I understand personally where everyone is coming from, but the way people should look at it is that the IOC is the boss while the athletes are employees. If we resist too much it will be like wrestling, and shooting will be kicked out of the Olympics. If it is kicked out then it will never come back.

As a shooter, I think it is best to just accept the change, not be resistant to it. If we do not accept the rulings made legally and in the interest of our sport, then we are just protesting for the sake of protesting and not looking at the bigger picture.

Also, look at it this way. The people who shoot free pistol are the same people that shoot air pistol for the most part. There might be one or two exceptions. They might have more shooters shooting the free pistol discipline, but they arent all new shooters...most shoot free pistol and air pistol...whereas Rapid fire shooters are all unique athletes. They add far more to the participation than the free pistol shooters would

That just my opinion

[Rodgunner]

Unfortunately- based on popularity or attendance or public interest in general-,the shooting sports are doomed as olympic events.In 1896 the IOC did not have to worry about TV or radio and public attendance was largely irrelevant;The games were intended for the true amateur athletes and had a truly noble purpose.Many countries (and shooters) would participate,regardless of their world "ranking".Then after WWII politics and the pseudo-professionals athletes supported by their governments tainted the sports,then in the 80's came the quotas,and now we have the "show" that must be presented to a scarce public (actually limited to the participants friends or teamates or family) and the demand for popularity,to try to "sell" the sport to the rest of the world,something that will never happen, even in the shotgun competitions,the most flashy of the events.Given the current state of affairs a game like billiards or wrist-wrestling or womens mud-wrestling would probably have more acceptance as an olympic sport.Sad