Physical Physiology (or other names for it...?)

[Chia]

Okay I don't know precisely what I'm asking for, which is why I'm asking you folks for help. It's obvious to me that the way the human body interacts with the pistol is absolutely critical to success as a shooter. I've spent a lot of time studying the pistol and how it works. I have next to no time studying the human body and how it works in relation to the pistol. For example, I'm told that deltoids have significantly better control lowering the pistol rather than raising it. I can find pictures of deltoids, obviously, but why is this the case? What is it about the deltoid that makes this happen? I'm talking the sciency stuff, like what muscles are where, and how they work.

What is this field called, and are there any (good) free resources available for it?

Thanks in advance.

[David Levene]

Biomechanics?

[David Levene]

You might find some of the documents here to be interesting.

[SteveT]

I have not studied physiology of shooting, but when lowering the arm the muscle progressively relaxes, probably decreasing minor tremors. Raising the arm increases tension in the muscle, possibly leading to more tremors.

Competitive Shooting by AA Yur'yev has pictures and discusses anatomy, if you can find a reasonably priced copy.

https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/ti ... r/yur'yev/

https://www.amazon.com/Competitive-Shoo ... 0935998535

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... v&_sacat=0

[hundert]

there isn't probably an answer, they probably measured how much your muscles shake and saw that they shake less when you lower into the target from above...

[Chia]

there isn't probably an answer, they probably measured how much your muscles shake and saw that they shake less when you lower into the target from above...

This reasoning is what I'm trying to avoid. I think a video will explain better than words. Please watch this before reading the rest of my post.

As an individual, I can practice accuracy until I'm blue in the face, but since all I have to teach me are books and electronic feedback (at the moment), I do not and cannot fully create a precise technique unless I understand the variables that go into it. Similar to the martian landing in the video in 1976 that did not understand the martian atmosphere or the speed of landing, I do not understand how my body works or how muscle tension affect different aspects of the stance. Since I do not have access to a coach who would have knowledge of these features (and not through lack of trying), I have to take on multiple roles in my development that are normally spread over multiple people: psychological training, physical training, and technique planning. In order to achieve a consistent ten, repeated 60 times, followed by another set of complete tens in the final, I need to create a technique that will precisely create a ten every time. Then I need to execute it perfectly. Without understanding at least some biomechanics, I cannot create that technique.

[Pat McCoy]

I doubt if anyone can give you a succinct answer in a few paragraphs. Yur'Yev spends over 40 pages on the human motor apparatus and the static use of the body, with additional 15+ pages on hand/trigger interface.

If you are one who needs to know WHY, not just HOW, the body works in shooting, the price of the book is dwarfed by the cost of the time involved reading and understanding what he is saying.

You may be able yo borrow a copy from "shooter", who is on this board occasionally.

[Ricardo]

Like Steve T said above, muscles under contraction are subject to an increasing rate of nerve firing, while the opposite is true for muscles relaxing. When you reach your hold you are at an isometric contraction of the deltoid, but it comes after a relaxation phase so your hold becomes steadier in less time than if you go isometric after the raise. Less time is better for acquiring and keeping a clear sight alignment before things get blurry and you start losing fine control of the trigger finger. All muscles are steady quicker after relaxation than after contraction. The deltoid raises the arm during contraction, so the lowering motion is the relaxation. I majored in Bio, so I have some idea about these things. I hope this helps.

[Gwhite]

Like Steve T said above, muscles under contraction are subject to an increasing rate of nerve firing, while the opposite is true for muscles relaxing. When you reach your hold you are at an isometric contraction of the deltoid, but it comes after a relaxation phase so your hold becomes steadier in less time than if you go isometric after the raise. Less time is better for acquiring and keeping a clear sight alignment before things get blurry and you start losing fine control of the trigger finger. All muscles are steady quicker after relaxation than after contraction. The deltoid raises the arm during contraction, so the lowering motion is the relaxation. I majored in Bio, so I have some idea about these things. I hope this helps.

Do you have any references that might cover some of this in any more detail? It's certainly the most succinct and detailed description I've seen of what goes on.

[deadeyedick]

If you are one who needs to know WHY, not just HOW, the body works in shooting, the price of the book is dwarfed by the cost of the time involved reading and understanding what he is saying.

How true this is !

Pistol shooting is not a thinkers sport to be honest, and you will be far better at it if you ingrain the basics from stance to follow through and then for the rest of your time move into low IQ robot mode and try to become a machine repeating the same action 60 times.

The mind, or rather the "subconscious" is the master in this game and you do not need the concious attempting to override the subconscious.

It is no more than becoming a student of:

1. Stance
2. grip
3. Sight alignment
4. trigger control
5. Breathing
6. Follow through

Once these have been mastered climb on board the sub concious and enjoy the ride.....and stop thinking about the combined action of the deltoid and pectoralis major.

[Ricardo]

Do you have any references that might cover some of this in any more detail? It's certainly the most succinct and detailed description I've seen of what goes on.

Unfortunately, I don't have any references; this is just stuff in my memory banks from when I was a student. I'm aware that this makes my statements a bit less reliable than I make them sound. Sorry about that.

[Gwhite]

I'm not questioning it, but if I try to use it for coaching, someone is bound to ask where I got the info. "On the Internet..." doesn't hold much water if someone takes exception to it.

Your explanation suggests that the common practice of coming down on the target IS more stable than just lifting to the point of aim. I think someone did a survey here several years ago, and about 10 to 20 percent of the respondents use the lift approach.

[Chia]

As usual, I really appreciate everyone's engagement. This forum is great for finding information. You guys have no idea how much easier you have made my journey so far since I joined Target Talk. Thank you.

Now back to shooting so that I can improve areas that need improving!

[hundert]

This reasoning is what I'm trying to avoid.
.

It was good enough for the Soviets to win everything and set world records in nearly every discipline.
And the Yuriev's book (linked above) which is the best book ever uses the same methods. The book even has diagrams of how muscles shake in different positions.

You don't need to know WHY, because why has nothing to do with shooting, so go over to medical forums for the whys, they'll tell you about lactic acid, adenosine triphosphate and all other useless crap.

[Chia]

You don't need to know WHY, because why has nothing to do with shooting, so go over to medical forums for the whys

No can do, sorry. You're stuck with me. I'm too squeamish for real medicine.

I plan to grab that book for my birthday or something, by the way. I'm certainly not going to disagree with its effectiveness, nor am I saying that your methods are wrong. I'm just naturally more curious, I guess.

[Ricardo]

I'm not questioning it, but if I try to use it for coaching, someone is bound to ask where I got the info. "On the Internet..." doesn't hold much water if someone takes exception to it.

Your explanation suggests that the common practice of coming down on the target IS more stable than just lifting to the point of aim. I think someone did a survey here several years ago, and about 10 to 20 percent of the respondents use the lift approach.

My explanation is consistent with the practice of coming down on the target, but doesn't actually prove anything. The truth is that only direct experience could "prove" one approach to be better than the other: one could just get 100 shooters to try it both ways hundreds of times and look at the results. Correlating physiology with what is "better" is way easier than testing it out. Correlation is not causation. This is a classic problem with any sport; bodybuilders develop beliefs about diet and supplements that have never been tested (and anectodal "evidence" doesn't count). Endurance runners will swear by regimens of hydration, carbo loading, etc., which have, again, not been tested. And the same applies to shooters. How much understanding is necessary and how much is too much is a hard thing to figure out. One thing I find annoying about Yur'yev's book is that based on the physiology he seems to jump to conclusions about what is "obviously" best about aspects of posture and shot routine. Just because it works for a world-class shooter who believes his expertise is based on science doesn't make it so. Did the Russians actually test all of this out? Or did they simply train harder than anyone else, or is it both? For those who have a copy of his book, look at his explanation around Figures 73 and 74; he uses this to state that it is "best" to bend the torso away from the shooting arm. As a former scientist, my question is "Where's the data?" And as I said above, the fact that he and his fellow Russians could outshoot anyone doesn't make that specific point true. And it may well be true that it's best to lean away from the shooting arm, but maybe not because of what he says here; it could be a center of balance thing. And it may well not be the best for everyone.

A quick look at the "Pistol Shooter's Treasury" (I think that's the title) will show that one can shoot like a demon without getting hung up on tiny details. Annie Oakley didn't know much, but she knew how to shoot. As others have said countless times, one's time is best spent at the range. Or dry firing. Or like a tell my students: "Don't practice until you get it right; practice until you can't get it wrong."

Oh, and GWhite: no offense taken. From what I can tell, I could learn a lot more from you than you from me.

[dronning]

Your mind/subconscious is where all the 10's come from. Remember this sport is 95% mental and your subconscious is the key. You can not consciously control your body and how your body reacts on any given day, way too many variables, but your subconscious can. If you train so your subconscious understands what it takes to get a 10, through repetition and reinforcement, it can and will adjust accordingly.

I'd suggest visiting Lanny Bassham's (Olympic Gold Medalist - Rifle), Mental Management site
http://www.mentaltrainingshooting.com/

What is Mental Management?
The definition of Mental Management®. It is the process of improving the probability of having a consistent mental performance under pressure, on demand. Mental Management is a registered trademark. All Rights are reserved.

- Dave

[Silvershooter]

Like Steve T said above, muscles under contraction are subject to an increasing rate of nerve firing, while the opposite is true for muscles relaxing. When you reach your hold you are at an isometric contraction of the deltoid, but it comes after a relaxation phase so your hold becomes steadier in less time than if you go isometric after the raise. Less time is better for acquiring and keeping a clear sight alignment before things get blurry and you start losing fine control of the trigger finger. All muscles are steady quicker after relaxation than after contraction. The deltoid raises the arm during contraction, so the lowering motion is the relaxation. I majored in Bio, so I have some idea about these things. I hope this helps.

This is very useful info. I have been using too much effort when lowering the pistol into the aiming area.

[deadeyedick]

The deltoid raises the arm during contraction, so the lowering motion is the relaxation. I majored in Bio, so I have some idea about these things. I hope this helps.

The function of the deltoid is to abduct the arm....this means raising it laterally away from the body, not raising it in a forward motion as happens when raising a pistol.

The forward raising of the arm is a joint effort between the deltoid and other muscles such as the pectoralis major, and if the shot is released in approximately 6-12 seconds from the start of the arm raise you have the greatest chance of minimal muscle tremor.

After reading Yur Yev's book from front to back it took me six months to clear my head enough to return to the scores I had previously shot.

[-TT-]

The function of the deltoid is to abduct the arm....this means raising it laterally away from the body, not raising it in a forward motion as happens when raising a pistol.

Doesn't that depend on your chosen stance? Many of the Olympic shooters seem to align their shoulders directly inline with the shot. That means their deltoids are performing lateral raises. I could see alternate mechanics coming into play for them.