My view on "Buying points"

[Chia]

Okay I'm gonna jump on my soapbox about this for a second. As someone who just bought a gun to "buy points," I'd like to share my experience so that hopefully put this old argument to rest.

In a nutshell: You're not buying points with $$$. Ain't nothin' being given to you! You're buying the opportunity to train with equipment that will be necessary to become competitive at a high level.

Background: I have been VERY casually shooting guns for four years of my adult life. I am 29, and I have spent six months seriously focused on AP. When I began, I purchased a Daisy 747. I got to the point (somehow...) that I could get quarter-sized holes with five shot-groupings. That was when my wife and I agreed it was time to pick up the Steyr I now own. So, how has it improved my performance?

I still shoot quarter-sized holes, (occasionally smaller) but now I shoot them more consistently. While I said I could shoot quarter sized holes before, that didn't happen very often, and it was tough to maintain. And by the way, if you're an instant gratification person, be prepared to be disappointed. I shot worse with the Steyr for about two months, but have improved to the previous level and have gotten better since then. All of them bells and whistles it comes with are pretty distracting if you don't know how to shoot that well in the first place.

To give you an idea of my level and the type of improvement I'm talking about, I just completed my first postal competition and am estimating my score at 468. Not exactly anything to brag about, but I'm proud of making it this far, and am eager to make the longer journey towards being competitive at a high level. So, would shooting whole competition with the Daisy have changed my scores?

Probably. I would have had a more difficult time identifying problem areas with the Daisy because I would have been focusing most of my mental energy on gripping the pistol JUST right so that it fit consistently in my hand. With a cheaper quality gun, you will end up fighting it to achieve what you know should be achievable. It will work, and pretty well, but you'll be limited in some ways. Also, I would be more tired due to the constant pumping (sorry Rover), and the need to stop and shake my hand out every few shots because of the Daisy's uncomfortable grip.

So, what should you do? Buy cheap or buy expensive?

Here's my two cents (and they're worth about that). If you aren't sure this is your hobby (or if you're just looking to do it casually), get a low-priced alternative and stick with it until you're sure. That way your significant other won't kill you and you will still be able to decide if this is a sport you want to get serious with. When you decide it is, it's time to start eying the big boys. That Steyr pistol can do a hell of a lot more than my Daisy 747 could, and you need it to improve your skills enough to be competitive.

I hope this post helps settle that debate and also helps new readers with a question I agonized over.

[renzo]

I hope this post helps settle that debate and also helps new readers with a question I agonized over.

You have a really high opinion of the value of online discussion if you think that any post from any forum member on any subject could settle any debate at all..........................................

[Chia]

Eh, I got a little into the rhetorical flow, sorry. Didn't mean for it to be so grandstanding. I wanted to make the topic mainly because of the second part of that sentence. There are a lot of people who get confronted with that equipment debate who don't know which option is right for them. I thought that a discussion of it by someone who had just recently gone through that process would be helpful.

[renzo]

Don´t worry, it´s my bad............... I forgot to put a sign meaning "ironic mode" was ON.

Let´s the thread go on.

[dronning]

Guns don't get you points, BUT poor accuracy or triggers can "hold you back".

Everyone is different but until you know if you are serious about improving go cheap.

I was interested in shooting AP as a way to practice for Bullseye. I shot an AP for the first time on an open range night, it was a Wed. I used a range gun and I fell in love with it. I went home that night did a ton of research, missed out on a nice used LP10 Steyr the next day, so I jumped in with both feet and ordered a Steyr LP10E from Pilkguns and had it for the next open range night. If I had it to do over again I'd do the exact same thing.

I know my scores, high 540's-low 550's and a 568 personal best is what I am capable of - the gun isn't holding me back.

- Dave

Yes there are much cheaper solutions.

[Rover]

Great fun! Yesterday a friend shot a 545 with his Morini 162ie. Today he shot a 545 with his Pardini K58 SSP.

So what.

[kevinweiho]

If you aren't sure this is your hobby (or if you're just looking to do it casually), get a low-priced alternative and stick with it until you're sure. That way your significant other won't kill you and you will still be able to decide if this is a sport you want to get serious with. When you decide it is, it's time to start eying the big boys. That Steyr pistol can do a hell of a lot more than my Daisy 747 could, and you need it to improve your skills enough to be competitive.

For you married folks out there, ONLY when it’s “wifey approved” should you purchase an expensive high end air pistol or prepare to face the consequences...

From my personal experience, I don’t regret buying my cheaper guns to learn the fundamentals. I am an air pistol aficionado and shooter at heart, and throughout more than twenty five years, I’ve learned a great deal. Enjoy shooting at your level and upgrade WHEN necessary...

[SamEEE]

Okay.

[v76]

You don't have to be serious about anything to drop 2k$ on it. It's your money. Do whatever you please with it.

You also don't need a 2k$ pistol to shoot 580.

I wouldn't shoot a Daisy 717 to prove the point but some people did. And you still can.

You can also shoot 580 with a 2k$ pistol.

Even the novices buy 2k$ pistols all the time. You'll often see them in classifieds a few months/years later. Better value.


The lack of excellent bang Vs. buck alternatives (like the famous IZH46M) now kinda make all this "can't buy points" rhetoric useless, especially when there's a pretty good used market for APs.

[RyanA]

My roommate had a Daisy 747 when I first decided to try shooting precision air pistol. After a few weeks, I could keep all of the shots in the black, almost, after a while. I was single and without childrens at the time so I bought a Steyr LP5 right away because it seemed so awesome and I had money to burn. It was awesome. The ergonomics (grip shape and angle, center of balance), adjustability, sights and trigger were fantastically better. In another few weeks I went from trying to keep all shots in the black to trying to keep them all in the 9 ring, something I still struggle with:) Was it the gun, or just a little more practice? Who knows, but I could see from bench rest attempts that the daisy was surprisingly accurate with its walther barrel. Problem was, it just wasn't comfortable or well-balanced in my hand and that messed with my brain and I think my consistency suffered as a result, especially knowing that there were better designed models available. I picked up the Steyr and it seemed almost to be a logical extension of my arm, leaving me to simply master trigger press, sight alignment, and sight picture.........

Can you buy points by switching from an LP1 to an LP10 EVO or to a Morini Diamondtanium? No, certainly not. But the difference between a Gamo Compact or Daisy 747/777 and a modern high quality PCP (or even the older generation of match-grade SSPs) with a proper fitting grip is night and day different in terms of ease-of-use and ergonomics (repeatability). Is it worth it if your financial situation allows, and you have made the difficult decision that this is something you are going to stick with long-term? My call: yes, absolutely!

[hundert]

I've owned many air pistols and my experience is that I shoot the exact same score with all of them.
I've had Morini 162 for a week last month, I've owned two LP1 (same build, but they feel different!), 10E, LP10.

On the first day with 10E I remember it not going too well, because I didn't have the tools with me for the trigger (you need a very small thin screw driver) and the 2nd stage was like a pound, yet I shot 99 in the last series (I shoot more 10s than 9s if anyone interested), while the other were lower 90s which isn't me. After that I always shot the exact same scores as with other pistols, I could switch between pistols between the series if I wanted to (and I did)

Grip size, rake, gun, none of it matters. If you put enough energy into it, you will shoot with a grip that doesn't fit you. I get elbow pain if the rake angle is too high, so my angle is slightly more "1911" from the Steyr's default.

So, yes, it's like you say, it's about consistency, it's simply easier to shoot when you have the right grip, gun, you don't need to sweat to hit well.

My favorite is the LP1, because of the balance.

[Chia]

Thanks for all the replies, guys. I appreciate the comments, both constructive and critical. We all have different opinions on what and when a gun should be bought. My point isn't to answer that question. It is to provide a write-up for someone who is completely new to the sport so that they don't hit the "research wall" that I hit when first learning.

It is stone-cold hard to figure out what the hell you are doing with air pistol on your own. This forum provides a useful community to solicit feedback from, but unless you know the right questions to ask in the first place, you may not get helpful answers. My OP was meant to address the deficit of early-level materials available in the U.S.

It's really hard to sort the crap from the good stuff online, especially when you don't even know the right questions to ask. The Air Pistol community in the United States needs a solid beginner's guide, and I'm not talking the ISSF introduction on their website. The AMU marksmanship guide is great for advanced people, but I'm talking if someone walked in out of the street, walked up to you and said "I want to try air pistol." If you hand them the USMC exercises, they will quit without a few days. USA Shooting, who should be responsible for this training, does not have this information easily available (I spent several hours combing their magazine archives for it). The CMP, the other organization that could be responsible, is far more focused on air rifle then air pistol (more commercially viable). Professional publications, like the Art of Olympic Pistol Shooting are great references, but they address a German audience, not an American one, and it's clear to me at least that there are some fundamental differences in the availability of certain resources (like coaching) between the two countries. A good coach would catch mistakes and things unique to a shooter that the individual would never catch on their own.

That leaves me with the conclusion that my generation needs a beginner's guide, otherwise it will be difficult to transmit this knowledge to the next generation of shooters. When I get skilled enough, I'd like to write such a book, but for now I want to do what I can to help.

I may create a youtube channel at some point as well to visually illustrate some of the points. A picture is worth a thousand words, a visual demonstration even more. I don't like appearing on camera, but if it helps, hell why not. Any thoughts on that?

[TenMetrePeter]

Youtube is a great way to add to the world's store of experience. Just be ready for thumbs down and inane comments when you thought you did a good job. I rarely show my face as its usually irrelevant to the content.
Pick content that hasnt been covered when you do a search, or has been covered badly. Use a shaving mirror behind the camera screen so you can see the action as you film.

[dolbyconnor]

Buy all the points you can...practice and dryfire to shoot the rest.

[Chia]

Youtube is a great way to add to the world's store of experience. Just be ready for thumbs down and inane comments when you thought you did a good job. I rarely show my face as its usually irrelevant to the content.
Pick content that hasnt been covered when you do a search, or has been covered badly. Use a shaving mirror behind the camera screen so you can see the action as you film.

Thanks for the advice. As people have probably noticed on this forum, controversy and negativity don't bother me too much, so this may be a viable option. I'll talk to my wife and see what we can do.