Hi, recently during our National Championships one of shooters shot 58 shots instead of 60 in 50m prone because one target was missed - I mean there was ... 11th, 12th, 14th, etc - BTW 13th was missed :-) (they shot 2 bullets per target). Simply somebody who preapred a band of targets missed a number 13. A shooter has no way to verify targets before competition - he should of course to count bullets, but he did not do that. The question is - is he fully responsible for the error from ISSF Rules point of view? (he did not found the problem during competition).
Best rgds
Grzegorz
.41715.0
Responsible for targets
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
-
Spencer C
what type of target system?
what type of target system was being used?
auto, windback?
.41719.41715
auto, windback?
.41719.41715
-
Patrick
Re: Responsible for targets
Hi.
I would think that it's the shooters fault. Yes, the targets should have been setup correctly, but a problem doesn't exist until a competitor launches a protest. Did he launch a protest within the alotted protest time?
When did he find out that he hadn't shot all 60 shots? Why didn't he count off his shots? I have my sighter ammo and my match amoo seperated, so I always know where I am in a match.
Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the shooter and unfortunately, this has become a costly learning experience.
Patrick
haynes-at-targetshooting.ca.41730.41715
I would think that it's the shooters fault. Yes, the targets should have been setup correctly, but a problem doesn't exist until a competitor launches a protest. Did he launch a protest within the alotted protest time?
When did he find out that he hadn't shot all 60 shots? Why didn't he count off his shots? I have my sighter ammo and my match amoo seperated, so I always know where I am in a match.
Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the shooter and unfortunately, this has become a costly learning experience.
Patrick
haynes-at-targetshooting.ca.41730.41715
-
akihmsa
Re: Responsible for targets
Hi Grzegorz
I don't know anything about ISSF but I do run lots of matches. In a situation like you mentioned as a Match Director I would tell him too bad you don't count but the misses are yours. He would not be happy but will always count from that point on. There is more to a shooting match than simply shooting ;~): Hi, recently during our National Championships one of shooters shot 58 shots instead of 60 in 50m prone because one target was missed - I mean there was ... 11th, 12th, 14th, etc - BTW 13th was missed :-) (they shot 2 bullets per target). Simply somebody who preapred a band of targets missed a number 13. A shooter has no way to verify targets before competition - he should of course to count bullets, but he did not do that. The question is - is he fully responsible for the error from ISSF Rules point of view? (he did not found the problem during competition).
: Best rgds
: Grzegorz
.41731.41715
I don't know anything about ISSF but I do run lots of matches. In a situation like you mentioned as a Match Director I would tell him too bad you don't count but the misses are yours. He would not be happy but will always count from that point on. There is more to a shooting match than simply shooting ;~): Hi, recently during our National Championships one of shooters shot 58 shots instead of 60 in 50m prone because one target was missed - I mean there was ... 11th, 12th, 14th, etc - BTW 13th was missed :-) (they shot 2 bullets per target). Simply somebody who preapred a band of targets missed a number 13. A shooter has no way to verify targets before competition - he should of course to count bullets, but he did not do that. The question is - is he fully responsible for the error from ISSF Rules point of view? (he did not found the problem during competition).
: Best rgds
: Grzegorz
.41731.41715
-
Grzegorz
Re: Responsible for targets
This is also my opinion - shooter is responsible for targets. BUT this is clearly given in ISSF Rules ONLY when 10m air events are discussed. So my question has raver formal character. A system with targets printed on bands does not allow shooter to verify if everything is ok before competition. In the mentioned case, shooter found the problem too late, 1h15 for 60 prone was just finished. Organizers - I suppose considering them co-responsible for the problem - allowed him to shoot 1 target for sighing shots, and 2 shots of competition. In this point I have to mention that the shooter finally refused to shoot as he found himself responsible for the error.
Grzegorz
.41748.41715
Grzegorz
.41748.41715
-
Spencer C
Re: Responsible for targets
On 'automatic' paper targets it is hard to see that it would be other than the shooter's responsibility.
The shooter fires the sighters, checks that a competition target is in place and fires the appropriate number of competition shots on the appropriate number of targets.
The numbering of the targets is immaterial.
: This is also my opinion - shooter is responsible for targets. BUT this is clearly given in ISSF Rules ONLY when 10m air events are discussed. So my question has raver formal character. A system with targets printed on bands does not allow shooter to verify if everything is ok before competition. In the mentioned case, shooter found the problem too late, 1h15 for 60 prone was just finished. Organizers - I suppose considering them co-responsible for the problem - allowed him to shoot 1 target for sighing shots, and 2 shots of competition. In this point I have to mention that the shooter finally refused to shoot as he found himself responsible for the error.
: Grzegorz
.41754.41748
The shooter fires the sighters, checks that a competition target is in place and fires the appropriate number of competition shots on the appropriate number of targets.
The numbering of the targets is immaterial.
: This is also my opinion - shooter is responsible for targets. BUT this is clearly given in ISSF Rules ONLY when 10m air events are discussed. So my question has raver formal character. A system with targets printed on bands does not allow shooter to verify if everything is ok before competition. In the mentioned case, shooter found the problem too late, 1h15 for 60 prone was just finished. Organizers - I suppose considering them co-responsible for the problem - allowed him to shoot 1 target for sighing shots, and 2 shots of competition. In this point I have to mention that the shooter finally refused to shoot as he found himself responsible for the error.
: Grzegorz
.41754.41748
-
David Levene
Re: Responsible for targets
: On 'automatic' paper targets it is hard to see that it would be other than the shooter's responsibility.
: The shooter fires the sighters, checks that a competition target is in place and fires the appropriate number of competition shots on the appropriate number of targets.
: The numbering of the targets is immaterial.
But wouldn't it be reasonable for a shooter seeing no more targets in his automatic target changer to simply assume that he had fired all of the required shots. He would not have the opportunity at that point to check how many targets he had shot as they would be 50m away.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.41758.41754
: The shooter fires the sighters, checks that a competition target is in place and fires the appropriate number of competition shots on the appropriate number of targets.
: The numbering of the targets is immaterial.
But wouldn't it be reasonable for a shooter seeing no more targets in his automatic target changer to simply assume that he had fired all of the required shots. He would not have the opportunity at that point to check how many targets he had shot as they would be 50m away.
dalevene-at-blueyonder.co.uk.41758.41754
-
Ross Mason
Re: Responsible for targets
I believe that a shooter has every right to query the actual number of targets they have shot. If they tell the Range Officer that they think there is a possibility that one target was short then it is up to the Range people to check the targets. In the first instance it is asking a point of fact, ie not coaching or anything like that, secondly, it buys the shooter "official time". ie if there IS a problem, then the Range Officer HAS to give the shooter the extra time.
So the lesson here is: If you think there is a problem. Check it out! If there is not then there is no skin off your teeth, but if there is and you ahve not queried it then.....
.41768.41748
So the lesson here is: If you think there is a problem. Check it out! If there is not then there is no skin off your teeth, but if there is and you ahve not queried it then.....
.41768.41748
-
Spencer C
Re: Responsible for targets - automatic changers - longish
As Ross writes (above) if in doubt ask the RO.
There is a reason why I posted the question about the type of target system. Depending on the circumstances, it could make a big difference to the Jury's view.
With automatic changers it is usual to have additional targets to get the machines to feed past the last targets and to provide for any additional authorised targets.
Any shooter who simply carries on until the targets run out will be in trouble for firing too many shots.
Also, with the automatic changers the pit crew pull the targets in batches of 10 shots for forwarding to Classification Office. At World Cup level any 'missing' targets will be normally be detected at the scoring tables (if not by the office receiving table) given the audit process.
As an aside, one of the advantages on 10/60 m of having a Register Keeper is the shooter (coach, spectators) can see how many competition shots have been fired.
: But wouldn't it be reasonable for a shooter seeing no more targets in his automatic target changer to simply assume that he had fired all of the required shots. He would not have the opportunity at that point to check how many targets he had shot as they would be 50m away.
.41771.41758
There is a reason why I posted the question about the type of target system. Depending on the circumstances, it could make a big difference to the Jury's view.
With automatic changers it is usual to have additional targets to get the machines to feed past the last targets and to provide for any additional authorised targets.
Any shooter who simply carries on until the targets run out will be in trouble for firing too many shots.
Also, with the automatic changers the pit crew pull the targets in batches of 10 shots for forwarding to Classification Office. At World Cup level any 'missing' targets will be normally be detected at the scoring tables (if not by the office receiving table) given the audit process.
As an aside, one of the advantages on 10/60 m of having a Register Keeper is the shooter (coach, spectators) can see how many competition shots have been fired.
: But wouldn't it be reasonable for a shooter seeing no more targets in his automatic target changer to simply assume that he had fired all of the required shots. He would not have the opportunity at that point to check how many targets he had shot as they would be 50m away.
.41771.41758