ISSF rule interpretation with Pistol Transport Boxes

[hep69]

Hi Board,
This is my first post.
Can anyone explain to me the interpretation in respect to the use of a Pistol Transport Box as a support when taking into account Rules 8.6.2 & 8.6.3 of the Official Statutes Rules and Regulations Edition 2013 Fourth Print.

8.6.2 Pistol Transport Boxes
Athletes may use pistol transport boxes to take pistols and
equipment to the shooting ranges, but pistol boxes may not be
placed on the bench or table, provided the bench or table complies
with Rule 6.4.11.10 (0.70 m to 1.00 m high). During Finals, pistol
transport boxes or equipment bags must not remain on the FOP.

8.6.3 Pistol Support Stands
Athletes may place pistol support stands or boxes on the bench or
table to rest their pistols between shots. The total height of the
bench or table with a support stand or box on it may not exceed
1.00 m (see Rule 6.4.11.10, maximum bench height is 1.00 m).
During Elimination or Qualification Rounds, a pistol transport box
(Rule 8.6.2) may be used as a pistol support stand, provided the
total height of the bench or table plus the box does not exceed
1.00 m. During Finals, a pistol transport box may not be used as a
pistol support stand.

Cheers
Paul

[David Levene]

In elimination and qualification rounds you can place your pistol transport box on top of the shooting bench/table so long as the total height is no more than 1m.

You can't in finals, but can use a pistol support stand.

[Chia]

I haven't had experience but I can take a stab at it as a bored lawyer.

There's only one way to read the two rules harmoniously, and that's that pistol transport boxes are not allowed on the floor during finals, period. They are allowed on the table only as a support rest (you may not open them or use them in any other fashion) during qualifiers. However, you may place pistol transport boxes near you during qualifiers and eliminations (this is most likely a security measure to prevent theft), or even as a part of the support (provided it doesn't exceed the 1.0 meter aggregate support limit), but during finals (when, presumably there is someone to watch them and, more importantly, people are watching the finals) you gotta leave the pistol transport box somewhere else.

Pistol beanbags (I refuse to call them pistol support stands because they just look ridiculous no matter how many times I see them) are allowed at all times.

This is similar to the basic rule of thumb for professional musicians. No one cares if you bring your instrument case on stage during rehearsal (no one's really watching but other musicians), but you better have that thing offstage and in a storage area during concert.

If I'm wrong, please, someone correct me.

[JFuller]

[quote="Chia"]I haven't had experience but I can take a stab at it as a bored lawyer.

There's only one way to read the two rules harmoniously, and that's that pistol transport boxes are not allowed on the floor during finals, period. They are allowed on the table [b]only[/b] as a support rest (you may not open them or use them in any other fashion) during qualifiers. However, you may place pistol transport boxes near you during qualifiers and eliminations (this is most likely a security measure to prevent theft), or even as a part of the support (provided it doesn't exceed the 1.0 meter aggregate support limit), but during finals (when, presumably there is someone to watch them and, more importantly, people are watching the finals) you gotta leave the pistol transport box somewhere else.

Pistol beanbags (I refuse to call them pistol support stands because they just look ridiculous no matter how many times I see them) are allowed at all times.

This is similar to the basic rule of thumb for professional musicians. No one cares if you bring your instrument case on stage during rehearsal (no one's really watching but other musicians), but you better have that thing offstage and in a storage area during concert.

If I'm wrong, please, someone correct me.[/quote]

OK

I would argue that the gun box should be kept on the floor and not on the table. IMHO

If my Pachmeyer(?) were to be allowed and still be within the 1m height limit the table height would be no more than 24", just above my knees

[hep69]

Thanks Guys I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on Television.

Cheers
Paul

[m1963]

Funny. We also try to comply with all rules, at all ranges. Funny thing is the rules are interpreted differently at many ranges. Result- we aim to comply at the start. If someone takes offence to what we are doing we accept the change and move on. Cheers! m1963

[Misny]

What a joke. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to study the rules and interpret them. I'll bet it has been a long time since any rules were eliminated (replaced with updates, but not eliminated).

[David Levene]

What a joke. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to study the rules and interpret them.

Really? We've been using the "pistol support stand" rules since they were introduced 01/01/2013.

[TenMetrePeter]

Mayb a dumb question but why would anyone use a box on the table for qualifiers and something else for finals? Shooters tend to be finnicky about consistency and repeatability.

[Chia]

Mayb a dumb question but why would anyone use a box on the table for qualifiers and something else for finals? Shooters tend to be finnicky about consistency and repeatability.

I agree, personally. I suppose this falls under "just because you can doesn't mean you should."

[SlartyBartFast]

Mayb a dumb question but why would anyone use a box on the table for qualifiers and something else for finals? Shooters tend to be finnicky about consistency and repeatability.

I don't know why anyone who makes the finals wouldn't be using purpose built equipment instead of making do with something else.

I suspect that the rules might be written to make the finals more professional looking.

And I find it odd that the acceptable tables could be of a height that make pistol stands illegal. If the table is 1m high or close to the maximum, then the shooters are forced to not use their pistol stands. And if someone wanted to get really pedantic, if the table is 1m high, even adding a mat to the tabletop to rest the pistol on would be illegal.

The overall permissible maximum height should allow for maximum table height and minimum stand height.

(I'm not a pistol shooter (yet), and I don't participate in ISSF sanctionned competitions (yet). So this is all simply my off-the-cuff opinion)

[SamEEE]

The detail around the finals is to provide a consistent visual experience for TV I believe. Would look shoddy if people were shooting off swappa-crates/milk crates/tupperware/pelican cases.

Mayb a dumb question but why would anyone use a box on the table for qualifiers and something else for finals? Shooters tend to be finnicky about consistency and repeatability.

Sometimes you don't have a choice as to the range equipment. Last year at the Oceania Champs it was a bit of a shit to find a box to shoot off.
Unless you're travelling internationally with a skillsaw then you could likely go down to Bunnings, buy a sheet of ply, and then make some boxes?

[rmca]

This is a very simple rule to apply.

The bench/table has to be between .7 and 1 meter high.
The bench/table with a pistol stand/box/tupperware(!) has to be no more than a meter high.
For finals you can only use a "pistol support stand", ie pistol transport boxes are not allowed.

For me, the problem relies on the .7 to 1 meter that the table height can vary.
It's a big difference especially if you are tall.
It would be much more simple if the ISSF established a standard height for the tables. Yes it would lead to some work on the ranges but it would provide a more equal experience across all of them...

[metman]

This is a very simple rule to apply.

The bench/table has to be between .7 and 1 meter high.
The bench/table with a pistol stand/box/tupperware(!) has to be no more than a meter high.
For finals you can only use a "pistol support stand", ie pistol transport boxes are not allowed.

For me, the problem relies on the .7 to 1 meter that the table height can vary.
It's a big difference especially if you are tall.
It would be much more simple if the ISSF established a standard height for the tables. Yes it would lead to some work on the ranges but it would provide a more equal experience across all of them...

I've shot the ISSF matches (qualifiers and finals) and this summary nails it. In finals the intention is to look good in case the cameras are rolling: neat uniforms, no pistol boxes, smile and wave at the spectators - even when they are outnumbered by the shooters! The standard table height is often too short for me, which is not so much a problem in 25m rapid but for 10m and 50m it makes a big difference I think. It would be great to have an adjustable pistol support stand so that you could always have the same height!

[Xman]

A very large box of legos

Build your own support stand..right there on the range to fit the height as needed not to exceed the max of 1m.

Just a thought

[Chia]

A very large box of legos

Build your own support stand..right there on the range to fit the height as needed not to exceed the max of 1m.

Just a thought

I was thinking of printing out the entire ISSF rulebook and tearing out pages in front of them until its the right height while telling them it's an adjustable pistol support stand...

After all, it's not like they define what exactly a pistol support stand is...! In fact, the pistol transport box rule is pretty clear that one item can be transformed into a "pistol support stand" under the right conditions.

Kidding, of course. Somehow I don't think that would be taken well.

[metman]

A very large box of legos

Build your own support stand..right there on the range to fit the height as needed not to exceed the max of 1m.

Just a thought

I was thinking of printing out the entire ISSF rulebook and tearing out pages in front of them until its the right height while telling them it's an adjustable pistol support stand...

After all, it's not like they define what exactly a pistol support stand is...! In fact, the pistol transport box rule is pretty clear that one item can be transformed into a "pistol support stand" under the right conditions.

Kidding, of course. Somehow I don't think that would be taken well.

I think it comes back to the fact that the finals are practically the only part that the media are interested in covering, and so the ISSF is trying to promote the image of our sport: a tidy-looking shooting space, and no clutter from pistol cases and all the paraphernalia that some cases may contain. Some guys might have those giant pistol cases covered in advertising or stickers from everywhere, or they have built-in scope mounts and drawers with tool-kits, spare barrels, etc. It could be considered very unsightly and potentially not good for the image. The rule against having the pistol case for finals is I believe partly to eliminate that and the finalists carry to the shooting position (in identical baskets) only the bare minimum of equipment: normally this is the gun, ammo, glasses, ear protection, one or two tools for adjusting sights or grip, and, if required, a stand (e.g. plain box) for resting the pistol on, as long as the total height don't exceed 1m. Finalists might take a few other items (towel, water bottle), but I can't see any advantage for a finalist to bring a lot of gear. So to me it has to do with image and doesn't seem like such a strange rule.

[renzo]

I was thinking of printing out the entire ISSF rulebook and tearing out pages in front of them until its the right height while telling them it's an adjustable pistol support stand...

Too costly a method, and they´ll further harass you for defoliating the Amazon......................

[Chia]

Too costly a method, and they´ll further harass you for defoliating the Amazon......................

You've clearly never seen the complete California Code, Annotated!





Metman, I agree completely.