Trooperjake wrote:And no we are not being complacent, we made sure the guns were unloaded
before the photo was taken.....it was actually taken before the match was started.
Nevertheless, posing for a photo showing infringements of the safety rules sets a bad example.
Preventing our members waving their guns around in the car park seems to be an impossible task, seeing pictures of competitors in high-level events doing similar things does not help.
Well, what rules were in force at that time and place?
Was there anyone else in the area?
Posing/dryfiring/whatever with a gun known to be clear and where the rules allow it is different from pointing an uncleared gun at spectators when the rules don't allow it.
And we have moved on a little since 1954, we can't have a bottle of red wine on the shooting bench during free pistol matches, we're expected to wear eye and ear protection, we do now have additional rules, bore-clear indicators, range safety templates, baffles etc which are generally accepted as 'progress'
Yesterday, WC final in Munich. There was a technical problem and one technician had to go to the targets. The officials ordered to drop the guns. All finalist did not obey and held the gun (with one exception). Matsuda even lifted his hand with the pistol towards the targets..... And officials ignored! Watch the video!
I actually see that at 17:37 an official motions to the shooter at the #1 firing point (Lee, not Matsuda) to put the gun down. Prior to that it appears that #3 and #5 are also touching pistols but they let them go after the rebuke to #1. I do not see anyone trying to raise the gun.
at 17:26 , Matsuda, firing point E lifts the gun and puts it down again at 17:29 (you can see it), but still keeps the hand in the grip as all other shooters with the exception of the shooter in firing point A, who had dropped the gun just because he had been summoned.
you can actually see that the shooper A, afterwards, repeatedly watches backwards and sees the others, who ignore the warning and keep the hand in the gun!
I was there, all shooters kept the hand in the grip, except shooter A... only after some time , some shooter dropped the gun. Costa for example did it at 17:30 , but the technical problem announcment came at 17:13.
Ok, I see it now. It seems that they straight plumb don't have a range safety officer, as is common in US (I do not know the European traditions). Announcement to not touch the guns ("make the line safe") is only the first part of the procedure, you then have to confirm compliance verbally ("is the line safe?") and visually (the range officer walks along the line and looks at each gun), and declare the line safe. May be the officials at World Cups expect top-level competitors to not need such elaborate procedures, but they overlook that the athletes' minds go into "tunnel vision."
I wasn't going to participate in this thread, but geez. Someone going forward with shooters still on the line?
Taking a picture of the winner with an open breach pistol in a controlled setting is one thing. Darned near all of us dry fire at home with pistols pointed in 'unsafe' directions. And people operating matches at ranges that need elevation restrictions are disturbing. One day there will be an accident and you can't call the projectile back once it exits the range. I know of 2 ranges that were closed because they didn't spend the money to adequately safe their ranges. One shot a person, the other shot a pickup truck on a county road, and then later shot the patio door of an occupied dwelling. But sending someone down range without seeing to their safety is hard to fathom. Maybe they don't mind shooting a competitor once and a while in Germany. But at all of the ranges that I have ever shot at, no one was allowed to be in the restricted area in front of the benches when someone was down range. The place I ran matches at before I retired would have shut the match down. The head range master video monitored all operations and they were always no nonsense, no grey area guys. Many, many yeas ago the bench rest guys would sit at their benches during ceasefires. A shooter that held a national record nearly shot his best friend while he was diddling with a balky trigger.
As heinous as sending someone down range with an unsafe line is, how about the official that went down range. I sure wouldn't have. I don't care how many pieces of gold someone has. I'm not going down range while someone is on the line with a gun and ammo.
In Italy security at the range is a sacred thing. You are really in trouble if you do not respect security rules. In Germany it is a bit too much relaxed. In my small shooting range, where most members have past their 70s, they are nearly as careful as in Italy.
However in my second shooting range, and one of the most famous in Germany, people walk around even with small caliber rifle held horizontally! I cannot tell you how afraid I am! Not to mention when they are servicing it on a bench in an open space where the main living area is!
Regarding the thing at WC Munich.
The command was very quite so also I haven't heard it completely and everyone was wondering what is going on.
I think the shooters also haven't understood that there was a break.
I don't know if it's in the video, but one of the officials went to Yang Sun (while the other guy already was at the target) and told him to put the weapon down on the table, but also ignored all the other shooters, still holding their guns.
In my opinion, there should have been a clear command and if nobody reacts a second or also personal advise to put the guns down.
Not just running to the target and change the paper-roll without caring about saftey..
I've been told, though I cannot find reference to it in the ISSF Rule Book, that only in 50m (Free) Pistol are the competitors allowed to stay on the line with their hands on/in the pistol grip provided the breach is open and a BCI inserted when people are forward of the firing line.
Why this would be, I'm not sure, but it might be down to the ISSF recognising that many competitors do not wish to release their grip between shots. I've heard that some competitors never take their hand from the grip until the match is completed.
BobGee wrote:I've been told, though I cannot find reference to it in the ISSF Rule Book, that only in 50m (Free) Pistol are the competitors allowed to stay on the line with their hands on/in the pistol grip provided the breach is open and a BCI inserted when people are forward of the firing line.
Why this would be, I'm not sure, but it might be down to the ISSF recognising that many competitors do not wish to release their grip between shots. I've heard that some competitors never take their hand from the grip until the match is completed.
Any truth in this?
Bob
There USED TO BE (not in the current rules) a rule in Finals e.g. 2009 6.16.4.5.3.6AIMING EXERCISES ARE ALLOWED ONLY between the commands “STOP” and the following command “LOAD”. DRY FIRING IS PROHIBITED.
On paper targets for 50m PISTOL FINALS ONLYFinalists were allowed to handle their pistols while scoring personnel were forward - the pistols were checked that the actions were open before the personnel were allowed to go forward.
