anschutz rear sight question

[Ltdave]

im re-outfitting some anschutz achiever rifles for my smallbore program and needed new rear sights...

i bought the anschutz 6805/10 rears from champions choice...

the kids have been taught for years to use the "right hand rule" for making sight adjustments. point your thumb the direction you want the bullet to move and your fingers will "point" in the direction to spin the knobs...

these new 6805s seem to have a "right hand rule" for the elevation but a "left hand rule" for the windage. is this right? it certainly doesnt seem so...

[justadude]

Lt Dave,

Most sights (even the European ones) have the same threads and carriage setup in the sight so the rule you describe works.

If you are looking at he letters and arrows on the Anschutz sights it seems backwards as the German way of looking at things the bullet is going exactly where it needs to go, the bull is in the wrong place, they envision moving the bull to the shot not the shot to the center of the bull.

Having said all of that, along with finger rules (which for me is way too much looking at my hands) one of two equivalent rules:

Counterclockwise = up, right

or

Clockwise = down, left

This would be the clock direction as you are looking at the face of the knob.

Cheers,
'Dude

[Ltdave]

...Counterclockwise = up, right

or

Clockwise = down, left

This would be the clock direction as you are looking at the face of the knob...

looking at the sights, right now in my hand i have the following results:


Counterclockwise = up, LEFT

Clockwise = down, RIGHT

this is obviously not following the right hand rule on both knobs, nor does it jibe with your information...

i just want to get this all clear in my mind when i bring juniors in to start shooting. it helps to have nmemonics to help teach...

[Peter_Scant]

The way I think of it with European sights is to think of the sight knobs as a screw. If the shot is high I want to turn the screw to reduce the height of the screw (ie clockwise). If the shot is left I want to turn the screw to move it to the right (ie counter clockwise). It's more complicated to write then visualise!

[Ltdave]

...If the shot is left I want to turn the screw to move it to the right (ie counter clockwise). It's more complicated to write then visualise!

except thats not how it works...

cranked the windage knob counter clockwise and the sight moved left...

[timinder]

Which side is the windage knob on? If it's on the left of the sight then you've got a left-handed sight, so even though the rotation of the windage shaft will be the same, you rule won't work as you're coming at it from the other end. Think of it as rolling the knob forward to adjust left, then it should make sense.

Of course, if the knob is on the right of the sight, you can disregard the above!

[NuJudge]

download from here:
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.ph ... &sprache=1

[Peter_Scant]

...If the shot is left I want to turn the screw to move it to the right (ie counter clockwise). It's more complicated to write then visualise!

except thats not how it works...

cranked the windage knob counter clockwise and the sight moved left...

The sight will move left but the shot will move right.

[Tim S]

[cranked the windage knob counter clockwise and the sight moved left...

The sight will move left but the shot will move right.[/quote]

No, the eyepiece has to move in the direction you want the shot to go, irrespective of LH/RH thread, or rifle. Move the rearsight left, and you have to point the barrel to the left to keep the foresight centred in the rearsight aperture; when the barrel points left, the shot goes left, and vice versa.

[justadude]

The point has been brought up, these are sights setup for a right handed shooter.

I pretty much assume the windage knob in on the right.

Just ignore the markings on the sight knobs. Trust me, I NEVER get out of position to look at them. Just reach up and click a few clicks.

Problem here is you got to thinking about it and now you are overthinking the problem. When you say the sight is moving the opposite direction, and you are sure about it, sure you are not looking at the frame of the sight? As you crank the windage knob counterclockwise and the iris disk starts moving to the right the frame of the sight will move to the left. It is the relative motion of the frame to the left that is easier to see.

Need to quit all this typing, put one of the rifles together, open up the range and give it a try. Then it will be clearer!

Cheers,
'Dude

[pmy]

The way I think about it is on the windage knob, "R" and "L" mean "from the right" or "from the left."

The elevation knob says "H" and "T". I have no idea what those stand for in German. But in my head I read them as "from the head" and "from the toe."

But as has been mentioned, when I'm in position, I don't read the knobs, I just remember the "clockwise=left/down" "counterclockwise=right/up."

[Ltdave]

"not looking at the knobs and just remembering" is fine. if youve done if for any length of time and have the attention span of an adult...

im dealing with kids who may or may not have much "time behind a trigger"...

im not coaching these kids for years before we start competing and coaches cant coach during a match, so the kids need to be able to discern this easily and without any prompting or clues...

i guess labels with the correct directors in ENGLISH is the way to go...

thanks everyone!

[Pat McCoy]

On the sight H is for Hoch (up), and T is for Tief (deep or down). Now the Germans correct the sight TO the actual point of impact. So if you hit high and left, you go H and L (links=left in German; R= Recht or right) with the sight adjustment.

Just remember you are adjusting the sight to where the bullet hit, NOT adjusting point of impact to point of aim like US sights.

[rmca]

You "tell the sight" where the shot hit on the target.
That´s the best way I found to remember.

As said, if the shot was high and left, you turn the knobs to the H and L.

Hope this helps

[justadude]

LtDave,

Take a deep breath, you have some frustration coming through in your response here. I will go back to an earlier post where I noted that you are probably overthinking the problem.

"not looking at the knobs and just remembering" is fine. if youve done if for any length of time and have the attention span of an adult...

im dealing with kids who may or may not have much "time behind a trigger"...

im not coaching these kids for years before we start competing and coaches cant coach during a match, so the kids need to be able to discern this easily and without any prompting or clues...

i guess labels with the correct directors in ENGLISH is the way to go...

thanks everyone!

The "right hand rule" you describe teaching your young athletes still works with the Anschutz sights. Regardless of the mnemonic you are teaching the athletes you are asking them to remember something. Frankly, I would avoid teaching a "hand rule" because bending your right hand around to figure out which way to turn the knob for shots hitting to the left could easily disturb a prone position.

OK, I get it, you are dealing with new and young shooters. Try teaching them "counterclockwise up and right" or "clockwise down and left" and see if they catch on. Frankly, as adults sometimes I don't think we give the kids enough credit sometime. The other thing to do there is put a little picture on the loading block or something else the athlete always has with them and visible to them on the line. The picture has arrows drawn into a circle, either clockwise or counterclockwise with indicators for what that will get them in or under the circle. That beats the heck out of trying to look at the knobs. And yeah, you can do those in ENGLISH if you like.

You are complaining that the Germans are not marking their sights in ENGLISH. Unfortunately there are not any manufacturers of mid grade smallbore target sights in the US. (There are a few high end manufacturers but the sights can cost more than the Achiever they are going on) A significant amount of equipment for this sport comes from German speaking areas of the world so anyone who cares to participate long term best develop a tolerance if not an appreciation for the German language.

Now, pick your favorite technique and go shoot!

Cheers,
'Dude

[BigAl]

My daughter moved to ISSF events from shooting BR. Fortunately the knobs on German smallbore sights move in the same direction as most scopes. Even so although she could cope with a scope the move to positional shooting really got to her. In the end I did as several others have suggested and made a diagram with arrows to show which way to move the knobs. I personally use the it moves the shots as if you were screwing a screw method. Even though I often still have to think about which way to screw a screw, and I'm 50 now. This system still works if you have a lefthanded sight, as the threads still work in the same direction.

The only time I have found sights that moved in the other direction were British made sights. All the Parker Hale and Alfred J Parker sights on both BSA smallbores, and British fullbore rifles work in the opposite direction. I came to shooting fullbore TR after shooting smallbore for about ten years. I still have to remember to turn the sights the "wrong" way when shooting fullbore TR. I have also found one scope and it was actually a German Schmitt & Bender, although it was the version issued to the British Army for the Accuracy International sniper rifle. I was handed the rifle and asked to zero for windage at a 1000 yards, but was not warned that the knobs went the wrong way or that it was maked up in Mils. So I put on what I thought was the correct windage, hit near the left edge of the target, wound on a correction and missed. The target next door went down! fired another, making very sure that I did not cross shoot. Next door went down again (an F Class V Bull too). It was only then that the owner of the AI rifle though to tell me that the scope knobs worked the "British" way.

Alan

[gwsb]

I have found that a small piece of target with 2 circular arrows, one counter clockwise and one clockwise labeled helps new shooters.

All this talk of labels, hands, and thumbs, ect is just bs. It doesn't take much shooting until the sight correction becomes as automatic as opening the bolt.

New shooters should not focus on bullet strike as much as group size. That is where the position is learned.


And last but not least;

Clockwise is left and down

Counterclockwise is up and right.

[stephen_maly]

American and German (western European) rifle rear competition sights generally follow the same adjustment rule (because they are manufactures with left-hand threads for windage and elevation). Remember "SCREWDRIVER"

American: the sight shows you which way to turn to achieve the desired effect; ie: to move right (follow the arrow) and turn counter clockwise or to move down follow the arrow and turn clockwise.

German: if the shot is HIGH; turn clockwise to move the point of impact down, or, if the shot is too far to the RIGHT; turn clockwise to move the shot left.

In short: American sights point where to go, German sights show where you are coming from.
In any case SCREWDRIVER is the word.

British empire (Parker Hale, AJ Parker, Central, etc.) and Russian rifle competition rear sights have exactly the opposite direction to the American and German adjustments (because they employ left-hand threads for windage and elevation).
In this case remember the BRITISH ARE UPRIGHT!

At least two English companies (AE Clarke, and RPA) have made both configurations of rear sights, so you need to look twice to make sure of which one you have. I have come across only one Russian rear sight (all steel, and placed on some biathlon 7 series rifles) which has mixed windage and elevation adjustments.

Please email me if you have any questions. I have both types of sights on my rifles (not at the same time of course!).
Steve

Subject: anschutz rear sight question