Why Can't I Buy a Steyr LP10 Long?

[Rover]

The Ferrari dealer would be snickering into his espresso.

How many times have I said on here that "You can't buy points."?

[mark e]

no you can't buy points ... but, I should be able to buy the gun I want if I have the cash to do so .... even if I'm just playing in the basement

[deadeyedick]

Is this new policy Pilkguns have adopted approved by Steyr ?
Surely in the United States this policy must be contravening discrimination laws, not to mention removing an individuals right of free choice.
From personal experience I have owned both long and short barrel AP's and to be honest found no real difference in my scores however I would be very upset if our factory authorised Steyr distributor made it clear to me that they would not sell me a long barrel LP10 without proof of having shot 555.
No matter how well intentioned this policy may be I feel the U.S.legal profession may view it in a different light.

[dronning]

Is this new policy Pilkguns have adopted approved by Steyr ?
And surely in the land of litigation this policy must be contravening discrimination laws.
From personal experience I have owned both long and short barrel AP's and to be honest found no real difference in my scores however I would be very upset if our factory authorised Steyr distributor made it clear to me that they would not sell me a long barrel LP10 without proof of having shot 555.
No matter how well intentioned this policy may be I feel the U.S.legal profession may view it in a different light.

Given the above many Junior programs would be in trouble because there are sales of certain competitive guns which are listed as you need proof the purchase is for Junior or club use.

How is that different?

[deadeyedick]

It seems that proof of use for a Club Junior program makes sense for the purpose of showing target shooting as it's required intention rather than shooting soda cans.

To purchase a pistol in the country that I reside you need to be a Pistol Club member and declare that the purpose of purchase is for target shooting only. Similar in spirit to your junior program which also requires proof of need.

However denying the right to purchase without regard to limitations such as physical handicap or age at first glance appears discriminatory and maybe a policy re think may be appropriate.

This is just my .02 cents worth.

[toddinjax]

Well, this is a rather intriguing subject. One the one hand, one must certainly respect Pilk's experience and expertise. He is, I believe, doing what he thinks is best for his customers and (coincidentally in the long run) the overall health and longevity of the sport by making/keeping successful athletes involved. He is most likely aware that this policy has the potential to cost him customers who'll buy a full length LP10, K12, LP400 etc. elsewhere when they can't buy a LP long from him, and further, if/when any shooter meets his 555 challenge, he'll be out a new pistol at 100% loss. This I think speaks volumes about the sincerity of his conviction that many would be better served with the short barrel and should be long considered by those of us who would ask "what pistol should I buy".
On the other hand, I find it disturbing that at least two consecutive posts in this thread voice opinions from first hand ownership experience that they both found their short barrels less forgiving than their full length guns. Alas, one size does not always fit all. So too, as has been mentioned, I don't think anyone living in the free world likes being told they can't have something they want and have the hard earned money to buy.
Of course, nothing would kill off this thread faster than confirmation from a number of top tier 10m shooters that they started off with a short barrel before "earning" the long. Have any world class competitors stated that they were better initially using a short?

[shaky hands]

Pilkguns would fit right there in the Soviet Union mentality. Here in America we don't need no stinking Nannies. Take notice, Pilkington.

[conradin]

If I were to buy a Ferrari, I'm sure the dealer would NEVER arbitrarily try to get me into a slower more forgiving car for my own good based on how fast I was, but a dealer wanting repeat business WOULD bring up the conversation and tell me about it...

Many years ago a College friend of mine was ultra rich, he decided to purchase an Alpina BMW with full racing set up. The company was willing to sell one to him, but did require him to take a driving lesson with Hans Stuck on the FULL Nuerburgring. The company decided that the car was too powerful in the hands of a non racing driver, so even though my friend had raced motor boats, it was still a company policy to have the customer trained properly before releasing the car. He flew to Germany and had the privileged to be taught by Stuck on the old ring. The policy was that he had to drive the car for three laps in "racing speed" after the tutoring. Then he shipped his Alpina back. I did not quite understand why until I was strapped on the passenger seat and he started to drive it. The acceleration was so ridiculous that I could not move a single muscle as if I were sucked into the seat. Of course, for someone who raced power boats and was a Apache helicopter pilot in the military, it was no big deal.
Perhaps instead of banning newbies, a mandatory one week coaching session from an Olympic coach to learn a long barrel will be much more welcome. I am sure lots of people will pay the extra money for the training session.

[shaky hands]

While an interesting story, it hardly parallels the present case. Driving a race car is an activity risky both for the buyer and other people. Shooting an air pistol below 555 has absolutely no bearings on safety of anyone. In this case it is a market ploy, though not very smart at the end.

[nick marshall]

Is the ban just on the Steyr LP10?

Or does it include LP50, LP2, fwb P44, Pardini K12. etc.etc.

I have shot 50/50 with a Morini 162ei short and the same with the Morini 162ei long. When i point the gun down the range, it's difficult to tell which one I am shooting. I do or course know, as the sight and back of the grip are slightly different.

By the by. That story about the car! Lost me totally with anything relevant in this thread. ;0)

[nick marshall]

You don't need to learn the difference between the two pistols. They are almost identical to shoot.
Also sometimes the test group on the shorter barrelled guns are tighter than the group from the longer pistol.

[Tycho]

Here in America we don't need no stinking Nannies

Says the guy from the place with 22 different secret services and house appliance manuals that forbid you to dry your dog in the microwave.

[conradin]

Just some interesting stats:

World Cup Fort Benning last 1 of the 48 under 555. 1 out of 8 MQS under 555.
World Cup Munich last 14 of 117 under 555. 1 out of 18 MQS under 555
World Cup Maribor last 9 of 85 under 555. 2 out of 13 MQS under 555
World Cup Beijing last 2 of the 44 under 555. 0 out of 8 MQS under 555.

It is obvious that most people showed up at Munich, and then for those who still have time, went straight to Maribor. In both cases, more than 10% of the competitors could not make it pass 555.

The entire UAE and the one man Canadian, Afghan, Filipino, Qatari, and Estonian team, did not make it pass 555. The one man Venezuela team made 555. 2 out of the three from Lithuania did not make it pass 555. Team Mexico went 567 557 555 552.
Most interesting was the Oman team. They scored 572 555 550 in Munich and then the same entire team went under 555 in Maribor.
The member who scored 572 in Munich only scored 551 in Maribor...too much party?

These are the stats....make your own conclusion.

[shaky hands]

Here in America we don't need no stinking Nannies

Says the guy from the place with 22 different secret services and house appliance manuals that forbid you to dry your dog in the microwave.

Manuals forbid nothing, they provide warnings. Dry them dogs as much as you like. But would you be willing to bet your air pistol that your Swiss microwave manuals do not have such a warning?

[conradin]

By the by. That story about the car! Lost me totally with anything relevant in this thread. ;0)

I was just trying to point out that for the people who think that Pilk has no right to restrict purchasing, then Alpina should basically take the money and let my friend drive whatever way he pleased. The flip side is if Pilk restricted purchasing, Alpina would restrict purchasing by putting a mandatory race driving lesson for all buyers. If Pilk reasons that the restriction is for the sake of learning, then Alpina would ask the potential customer to drive an untuned BMW in the Ring and be able to achieve a fast lap time as a proof of competence. In fact, if you buy a regular BMW and one year later you achieve a good lap time at the Ring, Alpina will give you an Alpina BMW for free; and if you do it in two years time, Alpina will take your BMW and tune it into an Alpina BMW and then give you back for free.

I hope you see the potential parallel there.

[David Levene]

These are the stats....make your own conclusion.

Wow, shock horror.

1) World Cups are usually won with a score over 555.

2) Some shooters cannot consistently shoot over 555.

3) 555 in AP60 is not a good score on the World stage.

4) (This is the controversial one) The structure of sport in some countries allows them to produce higher scoring shooters.

[conradin]

In Fort Benning, a Mr. MUNOZ MARROQUIN shot 513, he is the only person who shot under 555. He is from El Salvador.
In Munich, four shooters shot UNDER 540. 527 527 520 517. The last place being Mr. Athar from the one man Afghani team.
Nobody shot under 540 in Maribor.
In Beijing, two Qatari shooters (dead last) shot UNDER 540. the last place gentleman from Qatar shot 519.

I would like to know what is the criteria the ISSF allow shooters to compete as far as scores are concerned. How did the ISSF consider Mr. Munoz Marroquin good enough to compete in a World Cup? 513 is a regular club meeting score. Same thing for Mr. Athar. OK, maybe because they are one man team, they got exception, but what about the gentleman who shot 519, when his teammates were not a whole lot better?

The majority of the people in TT can in that case compete in the World Cup if they can score 510. That's .850. The top 108 person in the USA alone has that score as an average. However only EIGHTEEN people has the average of 555 in the USA Shooting ranking. And Rover is not one of them. On the other hand, there are quite many people who are hovering around that 540s and low 550s region. Rover being one of them. So a lot of long barrels will be given for free? Rover can request a free LP10E-Co2?

Again this is just stats. If we go by the USA Shooting ranking, then only 18 people in this country can absolutely have no problem buying a long barrel. I am pretty sure they already are shooting a long barrel...

It boggles my mind, really.

[David Levene]

I would like to know what is the criteria the ISSF allow shooters to compete as far as scores are concerned. How did the ISSF consider Mr. Munoz Marroquin good enough to compete in a World Cup?

Please read the rulebooks that you are so proud to have collected.

The ISSF do not set a minimum score to compete in World Cups, nor do they have any say in who is selected by National Federations (other than to say "No" in the case of banned shooters).

[shaky hands]

I was just trying to point out that for the people who think that Pilk has no right to restrict purchasing,

No one is saying they have no right. Right is a legal category. They can do whatever they want as long as they don't discriminate on the basis of race, gender, etc. (They may discriminate on the basis of score.) But as they have the right to restrict whom they sell to, they buyers are free to tell them to get stuffed.

There are many people who shoot above 555 in USA, in our local matches there are plenty, but most don't bother to pay USA Shooting exorbitant fees and don't see any reason to go to the Nationals.

[45ACP223]

Just buy from Champions Choice and move on if you aren't happy with Pilkgun's antics. They have Steyr LP10 longs in stock!