What is the difference?

josafoot · Post by **josafoot** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:30 pm

I have been doing summer biathlon and was looking to get my own rifles (as per my recent posts here).

What is the difference between these two rifles when it comes to Biathlon shooting?

http://www.rwcgroupllc.com/firearms/izm ... irch-stock

http://www.rwcgroupllc.com/firearms/izm ... 3-bi-7-2ko

I thought the latter is marketed as a biathlon rifle, but the first one comes with iron sights so would it not be better for a base rifle?

I am also wondering if these rifles are easily converted to Skiing biathlon. I have never skied but would be interested in trying out winter biathlon.

turbomike15 · Post by **turbomike15** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:26 pm

If you are really serious about putting together a race ready WINTER biathlon rifle, neither of those will get you were you want. The price point is steep but the Izh 7-4 is a much better investment, with snow sights, a stock that looks comfortable for off-hand (standing) and extra mag holders. An option is to purchase the 7-2 bare bones and add all the accessories necessary to race (which adds up pretty quick). I know another biathlete on here took a 7-2 and got it race ready, but if RWS is importing Izh's, why not get the real deal?

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:48 pm

Not sure of the difference between the 2 rifles. They read to be about the same except 1 comes with sights and the other does not

After you add in the cost to make it ready for a winter biathlon, the cost will be higher than if you were to buy a 7-3 or 7-4 new. Yes the stuff that comes stock with the 7-3 and 7-4 is shit, but it is functional. So if you were to get the biathlon basic, you would still need the following:
- extra magazines
- modify stock to hold magazines (or you could put them in your pocket)
- front sight with snow cover
- rear sight with snow cover
- harness
- modify stock to accept harness hardware
- sling and cuff
- modify stock to accept sling hardware.

If you are a lefty, I know of a place that has a 7-4 in stock.

As to RWC importing the rifle, I've given up on waiting for them. I spoke with them over 2 years ago and after 3 different reps I gave up. If you do a search, we even tried to do a group buy (might have been a different board) but they always had some excuse as to why they could not get them. Something about it being from Russia and the current rifles are not on approved the import list. The version on the import list is no longer in production.

Levergun59 · Post by **Levergun59** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:11 pm

Both those rifles are Ishmash 7-2's, the first with open sights. Neither of these rifles are race ready. You need diopter sights with snow covers and lots of other goodies The price is way too steep. I bought mine for $275.00 out the door. You can find them for sale from $400-650 on the internet. There is one for sale right now at rimfire central. Talk to Mark at Altius about what he does to the 7-3 and 7-4 barrels to shoot in the below zero weather. That would be your best way to go.
Chris

josafoot · Post by **josafoot** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:18 pm

Thanks for that info. Do you guys know of anyone who is selling the 7-3 or 7-4?

What is the diiference between the 3 and the 4?

I have heard the 7-3(4) has issues shooting in cold weather. How bad are these issues and at what tempurtures? The closest club to me is in Auburn California and South Lake Tahoe. Generally. There can be snow on the ground but it will be warm put at the same time. (30-50° F)

josafoot · Post by **josafoot** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:21 pm

I do shoot left as well.

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:10 pm

josafoot wrote:Thanks for that info. Do you guys know of anyone who is selling the 7-3 or 7-4?

What is the diiference between the 3 and the 4?

I have heard the 7-3(4) has issues shooting in cold weather. How bad are these issues and at what tempurtures? The closest club to me is in Auburn California and South Lake Tahoe. Generally. There can be snow on the ground but it will be warm put at the same time. (30-50° F)

IIRC the stock size is only difference between the 3 and 4.

I've not had any real issues with the 3 of my Izzies WRT to temperature, I'm located in New England. The barrels are epoxied into the receiver to make up any differences and that is the cause of accuracy from what I've read.

The disadvantage of the Izzy's is skiing with the bolt open at the start of the race. The toggle digs into your back a little, but you figure it out after a few times.

RonBott · Post by **RonBott** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:06 pm

crasher wrote: The disadvantage of the Izzy's is skiing with the bolt open at the start of the race. The toggle digs into your back a little, but you figure it out after a few times.

Why would you be skiing with the bolt open? Rules allow for it to be closed while skiing. I'm assuming you are left handed? Otherwise the bolt should not be against your back anyway.

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:57 pm

At the start we are required to ski with magazine removed and the bolt open. This is how all the places here in the Northeast operate (Ethan Ellen, Ft Kent). After the first shooting stage are we then allowed to ski with the bolt closed.

I can not find the rule in the IBU handbook. But I just re-watched footage of WC/Olympics and all their bolts are open at the start as well.

The toggle on the left handed action has the cam opening up onto your back. This is particularly painful after the race during the safety check.

RonBott · Post by **RonBott** » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:15 pm

crasher wrote:At the start we are required to ski with magazine removed and the bolt open. This is how all the places here in the Northeast operate (Ethan Ellen, Ft Kent). After the first shooting stage are we then allowed to ski with the bolt closed.

This must be a regional rule, and it must have been adopted since we last competed there a few years back. You start a race with an empty chamber ( no magazine or cartridge). This should be verified at the starting line, so there is no safety reason to have the bolt open at the start.

But I just re-watched footage of WC/Olympics and all their bolts are open at the start as well.

I'm not sure what you are watching, but this is not true. They will have their bolts closed at the start gate.

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:24 am

I still can't find the rule, but you may be correct that it is a regional rule. I remember at the WC in Fort Kent we saw athletes start with the bolt open. I always viewed that as a safety thing if a person fell and snow got into the bolt. It's been a few years since I've made either of those trips up that far north.

But here are some screen shots of the pursuit races from the Olympics. These were the first athletes where you could clearly see the bolt open. The skiers prior the bolt was chopped in the video.

Levergun59 · Post by **Levergun59** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:41 am

My harness rail is mounted on the other side of the toggle. Why would anyone mount the harness rail on the same side as the toggle, magazine rack and extra bullet carrier???
Chris

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:52 am

Levergun59 wrote:My harness rail is mounted on the other side of the toggle. Why would anyone mount the harness rail on the same side as the toggle, magazine rack and extra bullet carrier???
Chris

On the lefty Izhmash, the harness is mounted on the right side of the rifle. But because of the way the toggle works, its like those old left handed rifles with the modified bolt.

Levergun59 · Post by **Levergun59** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:51 am

OK, I understand. I guess you need a Fortner. lol

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:03 am

Levergun59 wrote:OK, I understand. I guess you need a Fortner. lol

yes, that's why i have these 2... ;)

RonBott · Post by **RonBott** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:27 am

I stand corrected (sort of). You are right, some athletes are starting with race with the rifle bolt open. But some have the bolt closed, so this is clearly not a rule. I can't figure out why one would start with the bolt open. It would save 1/2 bolt cycle when loading the first clip at the range, but to me that does not outweigh the possible disaster of falling on the course and getting snow packed into the bolt and magazine well.

turbomike15 · Post by **turbomike15** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:31 am

I agree with you RonBott, here in WI we are allowed to ski with the bolt closed from the start of the race. Too much risk in disaster if a fall were to occur.

crasher · Post by **crasher** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:21 pm

meant to post a reply the other day. heard back and it is a range rule for that particular range for the NG races. one of the other coaches said that they do it is reduce the steps on the line.

RonBott · Post by **RonBott** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:55 am

Interesting, thanks for posting the follow-up.

TargetTalk

What is the difference?

What is the difference?

Neither would be my choice...