That's what I've been wondering while following this thread. The guy can build a church organ from scratch, build a harpsichord, tear down and clean and repair a precision watch worth thousands, but watching a couple of online videos on the rather simple subject of semi-automatic pistol maintenance is somehow challenging? I'm dubious... but then again, REALLY don't want to get into yet another longwinded PM debate with a guy who misunderstands about 2 out of 3 things I say... so yeah, good luck with the new pistol Conradin and just pretend you didn't read this post.Rover wrote:A purported watchmaker can't figure out something as stunningly simple as a .22 diasassembly?
Embarrased and Clueless
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Yes, but even the most cursory look around ought to have given you enough of a clue to get started. I ran a Google search for 'semi-auto pistol maintenance' and here's the first result:
http://www.wikihow.com/Maintain-a-Pistol-%28Handgun%29
Nice clear drawings and instructions for cleaning and maintaining an average pistol, including a video at the bottom. Since your original post specified no particular model, no particular user's manual on particulars of maintenance for a particular pistol could be offered by members of this forum, could they? Your questions were wordy, but lacked specificity, and are thereby mostly unanswerable. Now you have a Margolin target pistol on the way, and presto, there are particular instructions available for maintaining a Margolin target pistol, in easily accessed video format! Isn't it nice how that works once people have something to go on?
What you did with the first post in this thread was to ask the semi-auto pistol equivalent of 'two people have let me try their precision chronographs and I have ruined them by winding, can someone help me with how to take a $5,000 watch apart?' First of all what you stated about ruining pistol chambers by operating the pistols incorrectly (one might almost suggest stupidly... as operating a semi-automatic pistol is completely obvious to anyone who's watched even a cop show or two) seems highly unlikely. Unless you somehow managed to accidentally discharge these firearms with bullets un-chambered, as in firing round when they were not located in the back of the barrel but in the open space behind it, this seems extremely unlikely. Brass and lead and perhaps copper do not damage barrel steel with minor impacts such as might be encountered in accidentally attempting to twice-load a pistol. You may damage the bullet casing of the already-loaded round, but that's all. Or were these plastic toy guns? You did not describe HOW you damaged these pistols, nor did you mention whether, if you did in fact damage these other fellow's pistols, they punched you in the face in return.
http://www.wikihow.com/Maintain-a-Pistol-%28Handgun%29
Nice clear drawings and instructions for cleaning and maintaining an average pistol, including a video at the bottom. Since your original post specified no particular model, no particular user's manual on particulars of maintenance for a particular pistol could be offered by members of this forum, could they? Your questions were wordy, but lacked specificity, and are thereby mostly unanswerable. Now you have a Margolin target pistol on the way, and presto, there are particular instructions available for maintaining a Margolin target pistol, in easily accessed video format! Isn't it nice how that works once people have something to go on?
What you did with the first post in this thread was to ask the semi-auto pistol equivalent of 'two people have let me try their precision chronographs and I have ruined them by winding, can someone help me with how to take a $5,000 watch apart?' First of all what you stated about ruining pistol chambers by operating the pistols incorrectly (one might almost suggest stupidly... as operating a semi-automatic pistol is completely obvious to anyone who's watched even a cop show or two) seems highly unlikely. Unless you somehow managed to accidentally discharge these firearms with bullets un-chambered, as in firing round when they were not located in the back of the barrel but in the open space behind it, this seems extremely unlikely. Brass and lead and perhaps copper do not damage barrel steel with minor impacts such as might be encountered in accidentally attempting to twice-load a pistol. You may damage the bullet casing of the already-loaded round, but that's all. Or were these plastic toy guns? You did not describe HOW you damaged these pistols, nor did you mention whether, if you did in fact damage these other fellow's pistols, they punched you in the face in return.
I think we need to give Conradin a break here. I've worked with some folks with Aspergers (and I'm saying Conradin has Asperger's syndrome, but he sure sounds like he's on the spectrum), and his questions make total sense to me viewed from that perspective.
He may have extremely good mechanical skills, but only when following the RULES. (I capitalize RULES to give them the weight of Biblical law, for which one would be stoned for inadvertently breaking) Not knowing the RULES from the start, everything is confusing, and fraught with danger, even mortal peril. Note the way he framed his question, and the detail in which he wants to know everything before he picks one up.
I applaud him for trying to work through this and learn about semiauto pistols.
I, for one, intend to cut him some slack. It's very difficult for neuro-atypical folks to navigate their way through the world.
He may have extremely good mechanical skills, but only when following the RULES. (I capitalize RULES to give them the weight of Biblical law, for which one would be stoned for inadvertently breaking) Not knowing the RULES from the start, everything is confusing, and fraught with danger, even mortal peril. Note the way he framed his question, and the detail in which he wants to know everything before he picks one up.
I applaud him for trying to work through this and learn about semiauto pistols.
I, for one, intend to cut him some slack. It's very difficult for neuro-atypical folks to navigate their way through the world.
That's a good point John, thanks for offering a different perspective. Your input makes me feel somewhat apologetic for my comments. When I recently had access to a semi-auto pistol for the first time (an old French model .22") my impulse was to take it down and fix what wasn't working quite correctly or smoothly. Magazine insertion was very rough (grip screws were too long and rubbing magazines, wearing away steel) so I trimmed the screws. The grip was very badly made (not original) but of good walnut, so I fixed that in a couple of ways and carved it down to a good fit. Bullet noses sometimes were catching then jumping nose-up and catching instead of chambering, so I figured out where this was initiated - the feed ramp had a very sharp bottom edge and after carving that to a small radius and polishing the problem vanished. The barrel had a compensator attached, but this was filled with lead owing to leading, showing a complete lack of maintenance for over 60 years, so I removed this compensator and bored out the lead and copper and powder residue. The hammer felt a bit rough, so I dismantled the rear assembly, found that the hammer pivot pin was slightly bent, straightened it and cleaned everything and reassembled. The magazines were filthy so those I learned to strip and clean. The trigger was very difficult, probably 15 pounds pull. I discovered there was severe wear on what was originally (I guessed) a sloping piece of steel, so I re-ground that to a smooth shape and corrected some minor warping and the trigger was brought to a manageable weight. The barrel was moving independently of the frame, resulting in about 1.5mm vertical play at the muzzle. Examining the stripped pistol I discovered two swaged pins had been used to retain the barrel and one was showing slight movement, apparently having become compressed. So I carefully re-swaged this pin and eliminated all barrel play. And there are a few other repairs/modifications... but you get the idea.
When I was a kid I took things apart to discover how they worked. Destroyed a few perfectly functional clocks, a toaster, various household objects, but by the time I was 11 or 12 I was repairing these same sorts of things thanks to that experience. An owners manual seems rarely to be of much use to me, as they're usually very badly written and often laden with misinformation. But that's me. I'll take a step back and consider that probably Conradin is not put together in the same sort of way, and so he needs things spelled out before proceeding. However I'll stick to my suggestion that in future, he might just consider asking specific questions about specific pistols rather than lengthy, vague sort-of questions which do not really allow for much of an answer. In the same way, I do not give estimates on violin repairs over the phone or by email, only in person, once I've seen what's been damaged and can assess what courses of action might prove best. Specifics help. Generalities, including bizarre and incomplete anecdotes about ruining guns by pulling their slides, those just don't seem to lead towards anyone providing useful help, and especially not links to owners manuals.
When I was a kid I took things apart to discover how they worked. Destroyed a few perfectly functional clocks, a toaster, various household objects, but by the time I was 11 or 12 I was repairing these same sorts of things thanks to that experience. An owners manual seems rarely to be of much use to me, as they're usually very badly written and often laden with misinformation. But that's me. I'll take a step back and consider that probably Conradin is not put together in the same sort of way, and so he needs things spelled out before proceeding. However I'll stick to my suggestion that in future, he might just consider asking specific questions about specific pistols rather than lengthy, vague sort-of questions which do not really allow for much of an answer. In the same way, I do not give estimates on violin repairs over the phone or by email, only in person, once I've seen what's been damaged and can assess what courses of action might prove best. Specifics help. Generalities, including bizarre and incomplete anecdotes about ruining guns by pulling their slides, those just don't seem to lead towards anyone providing useful help, and especially not links to owners manuals.
C'mon guys, telling people I may have Asperger syndrome is ridiculous and absolutely untrue and not cool. I do have quite a few real life friends who suffer from Asperger and it is not a pretty condition. It is hard for them.
I could also groundlessly declare both of you may have personality disorders.
Neither of your are doctors, nor am I. As Gerard says, until you see the real thing don't do estimate. He is a very good luthier and all good luthiers will do the same thing he does.
Asking for technical blueprints and detail instruction manuala is not an unreasonable approach. Gerard may be a genius and take things apart since childhood to the point of putting it back together blindfolded. It took me months to master taking apart a watch and putting it together under the supervision of the instructor with the help of a couple of textbook while in watchmaking school, and even then when dealing with chronograph or moonphase triple calendar I still need the individual blue print. Yes, there are actually books of blueprints for most watches, and if you cannot find one, you are better off sending the item to the manufacturers and let them do it. Its not my timepiece and there is a limit the insurance can only cover for damages.
Without me asking the initial question of the thread, I will never reach the point of getting a Margolin and then get the instruction and detailed diagram, and also people pointing out about youtube video.
My two mistakes were true, and stemmed from the owner who did not give detailed instruction of how the pistol works. In the first case, in fact, it was done by me and another person together. Neither of us have ever shot a semi-automatic before. The only instruction I got from the owner was "just rack it". No instruction was given on how to put cartridges into the magazine. Turned out the owner was also pretty clueless about pistols and rifles. Blind leads blinds. The owner at the time was the only person we both knew who own a semi-automatic.
I can completely dissemble my Fee Pistols, Air pistols and revolvers, but that also only because I have either the blueprint or technical manual or both. I am not made of Gold and I sure do not want to take a chance before doing anything about a pistol without some research and learning. This is a firearm after all and potentially can go kaboom if I screw it up.
I simply do not have the understanding or skills that Gerard has. I don't even know what he was writing about in the immediate post before this. All those technical terms. I think people in this forum took it for granted that everyone had shot a pistol for 10 years. Well, I don't. I have never touched a firearm until one and a half years ago.
OK enough of that. I myself am done with this thread.
I could also groundlessly declare both of you may have personality disorders.
Neither of your are doctors, nor am I. As Gerard says, until you see the real thing don't do estimate. He is a very good luthier and all good luthiers will do the same thing he does.
Asking for technical blueprints and detail instruction manuala is not an unreasonable approach. Gerard may be a genius and take things apart since childhood to the point of putting it back together blindfolded. It took me months to master taking apart a watch and putting it together under the supervision of the instructor with the help of a couple of textbook while in watchmaking school, and even then when dealing with chronograph or moonphase triple calendar I still need the individual blue print. Yes, there are actually books of blueprints for most watches, and if you cannot find one, you are better off sending the item to the manufacturers and let them do it. Its not my timepiece and there is a limit the insurance can only cover for damages.
Without me asking the initial question of the thread, I will never reach the point of getting a Margolin and then get the instruction and detailed diagram, and also people pointing out about youtube video.
My two mistakes were true, and stemmed from the owner who did not give detailed instruction of how the pistol works. In the first case, in fact, it was done by me and another person together. Neither of us have ever shot a semi-automatic before. The only instruction I got from the owner was "just rack it". No instruction was given on how to put cartridges into the magazine. Turned out the owner was also pretty clueless about pistols and rifles. Blind leads blinds. The owner at the time was the only person we both knew who own a semi-automatic.
I can completely dissemble my Fee Pistols, Air pistols and revolvers, but that also only because I have either the blueprint or technical manual or both. I am not made of Gold and I sure do not want to take a chance before doing anything about a pistol without some research and learning. This is a firearm after all and potentially can go kaboom if I screw it up.
I simply do not have the understanding or skills that Gerard has. I don't even know what he was writing about in the immediate post before this. All those technical terms. I think people in this forum took it for granted that everyone had shot a pistol for 10 years. Well, I don't. I have never touched a firearm until one and a half years ago.
OK enough of that. I myself am done with this thread.
Fine, yes, we each have different styles of learning and ways of approaching various kinds of work. Like you, at least in luthiery, I hit the books first, then tackled working in wood. Once realising that this was the work I wanted to spend my life doing, at age 25, I quit my job and spent my days in the libraries of my city for about 6 months, reading every book even tangentially connected to the craft of instrument making, even delving into woodwinds and organs and others not directly related to violinmaking as I could see that at least a cursory understanding of the acoustical physics involved with the musical enterprise would be of use. I also joined the Violin Makers Association of BC... though that was short lived, as I learned that most there were hobbyists with no significant aspirations. Since that initial study period I have relied on books much less, preferring to revert to my hands-on approach. Most of that initial study was borderline useless really, a waste of time, but I didn't know that until I'd spent that time then worked on instruments for a few years.
Anyway, to each his own. My confusion and some measure of frustration with Conradin's initial post and subsequent posts in this thread remains largely intact, as he's still neglected (refused?) to offer details as to exactly how these two semi-auto pistols suffered "damage chamber" as he put it in both cases. What sort of damage? I am genuinely curious, and rather dubious that chamber (steel) damage could occur with some sort of 'racking' at the wrong time resulting in ammunition (brass and lead and perhaps copper - all much, much softer than the steel of a chamber) damaging these pistols. I know you said you're done with this thread... but please, could you not resolve this one question properly? How exactly were these pistols damaged? I don't really give a rat's arse about the personality types or levels of expertise of those parties involved, I'm just curious to know what happened, exactly. Is it even possible to damage a semi-auto pistol by jamming two bullets into the same place successively? Seems to me, as stated earlier, that the biggest danger would be from using massive force and somehow igniting the primer in the second-loaded cartridge, resulting in the powder and case exploding, perhaps setting off the fully-loaded cartridge and causing a second explosion which could well damage the chamber... however it seems likely that Conradin would have been seeking medical attention if such were the case, with perhaps a loss of eyesight and a few fingers.
Anyway, to each his own. My confusion and some measure of frustration with Conradin's initial post and subsequent posts in this thread remains largely intact, as he's still neglected (refused?) to offer details as to exactly how these two semi-auto pistols suffered "damage chamber" as he put it in both cases. What sort of damage? I am genuinely curious, and rather dubious that chamber (steel) damage could occur with some sort of 'racking' at the wrong time resulting in ammunition (brass and lead and perhaps copper - all much, much softer than the steel of a chamber) damaging these pistols. I know you said you're done with this thread... but please, could you not resolve this one question properly? How exactly were these pistols damaged? I don't really give a rat's arse about the personality types or levels of expertise of those parties involved, I'm just curious to know what happened, exactly. Is it even possible to damage a semi-auto pistol by jamming two bullets into the same place successively? Seems to me, as stated earlier, that the biggest danger would be from using massive force and somehow igniting the primer in the second-loaded cartridge, resulting in the powder and case exploding, perhaps setting off the fully-loaded cartridge and causing a second explosion which could well damage the chamber... however it seems likely that Conradin would have been seeking medical attention if such were the case, with perhaps a loss of eyesight and a few fingers.
I need to apologize to Conradin, and everyone else, because I did make it sound like he has Aspergers, when in fact I've never met the man, nor am I a doctor. I had intended to make the post more as a "let's suppose the guy is just different than us" rather than jump all over him for being a bad person.
I actually like and appreciate Conradin's contribution to the forum. I learn from the questions he asks, and the answers he solicits.
To you, Conradin, I sincerely apologize.
-John
I actually like and appreciate Conradin's contribution to the forum. I learn from the questions he asks, and the answers he solicits.
To you, Conradin, I sincerely apologize.
-John
John, if it's any help, this is how I took your post. I also respect your willingness to post an apology ... well done.John C wrote:... I had intended to make the post more as a "let's suppose the guy is just different than us"...
I too have enjoyed the conversations that Conradin has elicited in these forums. I hope he continues to be part of this group.
Lee
I changed my freaking mind, I bought a Hammerli 208 instead in exchange of the Margolin from the same seller. Now it is that awful 11 day waiting period, and before you know it it will be the end of February when I receive the pistol. Thankfully like the Margolin, I think it is a pretty standard affair. I also am sure that there will be more shooters in my area who are familiar with it and guide me how to use it, field strip, trigger weight adjustment, etc etc etc.
Last edited by conradin on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well our host's helpful pages would seem to be a good place to begin your studies:
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/sph208s.htm
Which provides these additional links:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... highlight=
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/208smanual.pdf
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/hammerli208sca.html
http://www.australiancynic.com/208.htm
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/sph208s.htm
Which provides these additional links:
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... highlight=
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/208smanual.pdf
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/hammerli208sca.html
http://www.australiancynic.com/208.htm
OK, I have to cancel the purchase of the 208. The seller has no clues. Too bad, because I know the 208 is popular and everyone knows how to strip it.
So instead of paying $1250 for it, I now go for a $750 Hammerli Walther Olympia. My FFL is ready, it is up to the other side to find his FFL. The only problem is I don't know where I can find an instruction or manual of it, but I guess Larry Carter can help. Save me $500 and still get a decent pistol.
I will still looking for a good Margolin in the future, so I will be keeping an eye on the buy and sell section.
Thank you for Gerard's help. It just did not work out. Sometimes I am amazed about the ignorance of a firearm dealer who sell high end, C&R or target pistols. They list the item wrong, etc etc.
At least this Olympia is in state and from someone who definitely knows what it is, since it was sent to Larry before. So Larry definitely will remember this particular one.
Keep fingers crossed.
So instead of paying $1250 for it, I now go for a $750 Hammerli Walther Olympia. My FFL is ready, it is up to the other side to find his FFL. The only problem is I don't know where I can find an instruction or manual of it, but I guess Larry Carter can help. Save me $500 and still get a decent pistol.
I will still looking for a good Margolin in the future, so I will be keeping an eye on the buy and sell section.
Thank you for Gerard's help. It just did not work out. Sometimes I am amazed about the ignorance of a firearm dealer who sell high end, C&R or target pistols. They list the item wrong, etc etc.
At least this Olympia is in state and from someone who definitely knows what it is, since it was sent to Larry before. So Larry definitely will remember this particular one.
Keep fingers crossed.
Honestly conradin, your reluctance to use Google is a bit embarrassing. On this page you'll find manuals of various sorts for many, many weapons:
http://12160.info/group/rise-of-the-red ... the-planet
The PDF for the pistol you're considering today, which was apparently designed for the 1936 Olympics, is at this link:
http://stevespages.com/pdf/hammerli_olympia.pdf
It appears to be a blow-up of all the parts of the pistol, parts list in several languages, and ordering information for replacement parts. I'm sure you'll find more information if you join the Walther forums or look for the many other resources available.
http://12160.info/group/rise-of-the-red ... the-planet
The PDF for the pistol you're considering today, which was apparently designed for the 1936 Olympics, is at this link:
http://stevespages.com/pdf/hammerli_olympia.pdf
It appears to be a blow-up of all the parts of the pistol, parts list in several languages, and ordering information for replacement parts. I'm sure you'll find more information if you join the Walther forums or look for the many other resources available.
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brent375hh
- Posts: 741
- Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:04 am
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Thank you thank you, these pages are AWESOME!!!Gerard wrote:Honestly conradin, your reluctance to use Google is a bit embarrassing. On this page you'll find manuals of various sorts for many, many weapons:
http://12160.info/group/rise-of-the-red ... the-planet
The PDF for the pistol you're considering today, which was apparently designed for the 1936 Olympics, is at this link:
http://stevespages.com/pdf/hammerli_olympia.pdf
It appears to be a blow-up of all the parts of the pistol, parts list in several languages, and ordering information for replacement parts. I'm sure you'll find more information if you join the Walther forums or look for the many other resources available.