So I'm trying to figure out this diagram. Unless the rules are completely out dated, it seems to suggest the length of the beaver tail has to be 30mm or under. If i were to judge from the picture id guess the length at a minimum of 50mm.
After further studying it looks like the 30mm is from the top of the hand. Not the deepest part of the grip which only applies to 25m pistols.
I can see how effective it would be by making a V shape between the palm rest and tail.
Hmmm....
The real Cesare Morini and his grips
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Poogi:
Have a look at this page of rules in the German version
http://www.formgriffe.de/shpPfCnt.php?sCI=124
As far as I understand the limit on the tail is only for the 25m pistol.
In my club there are a couple of good shooters competing at high national level and have such a long tail for the Air pistol.
When Morin was working on the grip, he was quoting the rules. For example, regarding the tail he had to flatten it to respect the rule shown in the attached document. I did not like this as, before filing the grip flat, the support of the concave grip was fantastic..... but rules are rules!
Also I saw hundreds of grips of the Match Guns MGH1 Hybrid with such a long tail.
Have a look at this page of rules in the German version
http://www.formgriffe.de/shpPfCnt.php?sCI=124
As far as I understand the limit on the tail is only for the 25m pistol.
In my club there are a couple of good shooters competing at high national level and have such a long tail for the Air pistol.
When Morin was working on the grip, he was quoting the rules. For example, regarding the tail he had to flatten it to respect the rule shown in the attached document. I did not like this as, before filing the grip flat, the support of the concave grip was fantastic..... but rules are rules!
Also I saw hundreds of grips of the Match Guns MGH1 Hybrid with such a long tail.
Poogi
Have a look at Zavala
http://www.matchguns.com/it/news/granada-world-cup-2013
she won in Granada with the MGH1 and has the C Morini custom made grip with the long tail
Have a look at Zavala
http://www.matchguns.com/it/news/granada-world-cup-2013
she won in Granada with the MGH1 and has the C Morini custom made grip with the long tail
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Jon Eulette
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:13 pm
In 1994 I shot CISM in Switzerland when I was with the AMU. I had Morini make me 3 grips; Steyr Air, Toz-35, and Walther GSP. My next match with those grips I set 2 personal best. I have a severe hyper extension of the shooting arm and never had anything close to a natural point of aim; low to the left was natural. He is truly a master of his craft.
Jon, what is AMU?
You are right, the man is a master. He just watch my hand a few times , then he carved the grip for 15 minutes, removing first all my resin modifications and then half of the wood of the origina grip. It fitted already perfect and I was sure that we were ready....was just the beginning!
You can appreciate from pics, that the material he added is very limited, mostly at the rear of the hand.
I was surprised by the amount of time he spent on the last joint of second and third finger....see pic n. 10 . He added resin flush with the flat back of the pistol to create an edge to engage exactly in the skin fold of the last phalanx joint, but without hurting. He repeated this 3 or 4 times because he was never satisfied.... And said that this is more important than the actual position of the middle phalanx. Certainly when he finished I had a great feeling of the middle phalanx holding the pistol.
You are right, the man is a master. He just watch my hand a few times , then he carved the grip for 15 minutes, removing first all my resin modifications and then half of the wood of the origina grip. It fitted already perfect and I was sure that we were ready....was just the beginning!
You can appreciate from pics, that the material he added is very limited, mostly at the rear of the hand.
I was surprised by the amount of time he spent on the last joint of second and third finger....see pic n. 10 . He added resin flush with the flat back of the pistol to create an edge to engage exactly in the skin fold of the last phalanx joint, but without hurting. He repeated this 3 or 4 times because he was never satisfied.... And said that this is more important than the actual position of the middle phalanx. Certainly when he finished I had a great feeling of the middle phalanx holding the pistol.
Did you shoot better with this grip?
Comfort and aesthetic vs. score might not correlate linearly. There is an old adage from an old Russian champ that he shoots best when grip is not TOO comfortable.
Very interest in your description of the careful application of material to the third finger support. Could you explain it in more detail what he was trying to do?
Comfort and aesthetic vs. score might not correlate linearly. There is an old adage from an old Russian champ that he shoots best when grip is not TOO comfortable.
Very interest in your description of the careful application of material to the third finger support. Could you explain it in more detail what he was trying to do?
Very interesting picture 9 and 10.
So he actually fill up the finger tip groove, so middle phalanx flat front pull back area extend to include part of distal joint. The front middle phalanx area is now quite broad. Your distal fingers are not wrapped, but almost extending parallel with the middle phalanx.
Nice big pull back area from the front middle. Nice.
So he actually fill up the finger tip groove, so middle phalanx flat front pull back area extend to include part of distal joint. The front middle phalanx area is now quite broad. Your distal fingers are not wrapped, but almost extending parallel with the middle phalanx.
Nice big pull back area from the front middle. Nice.
Seamaster.
I am travelling right now, so I will be able to shoot only next friday.... I hope it positively affects my shooting.
I have used LP10E 4 times so far (in the last 3 weeks) : the first 3 times I never shot anything better than 7-8! This was with the original grip.
Then I modified the grip myself (remained terribly bulky and unconfortable in my hand, but i managed to get a bit of support from the tail).
And the forth time was last week when I had my first competition! In the 4 series I got very similar results: 4 tens, 4 nines, then came 6 and a 7! Obviously I was very pleased, considered the first 3 experiences with the LP10E.
So I hope that with Cesare's grip i will manage to remove those random shots. But I have no idea if this will happen. I am an absolute newbie!
I will keep you updated on the effect of the grip on my shooting!!!
I am travelling right now, so I will be able to shoot only next friday.... I hope it positively affects my shooting.
I have used LP10E 4 times so far (in the last 3 weeks) : the first 3 times I never shot anything better than 7-8! This was with the original grip.
Then I modified the grip myself (remained terribly bulky and unconfortable in my hand, but i managed to get a bit of support from the tail).
And the forth time was last week when I had my first competition! In the 4 series I got very similar results: 4 tens, 4 nines, then came 6 and a 7! Obviously I was very pleased, considered the first 3 experiences with the LP10E.
So I hope that with Cesare's grip i will manage to remove those random shots. But I have no idea if this will happen. I am an absolute newbie!
I will keep you updated on the effect of the grip on my shooting!!!
Seamaster, regarding you questions.
You are right. He removed the grove for the finger tips!
and I have a nice, broad and flat contact area for the middle phalanx which extends till the middle of the distal joint.
So the bone of the middle phalanx is in perfect, flat contact with the front of the grip.
The sharp edge (flush with the left side of the grip) really fits in between the first and middle phalanx.
Cesare used the words "the phalanx must hook" on the grip. And this is the feeling I got when he was happy with the work. The second and third finger are really hooking on the edge. I feel the edge exactly in between the phalanxes and I have a great feeling of the 2 middle phalanx bones being in flat contact with the wood.
The tip is free in the air and does not have a groove, as you see in many books and reccomendations.
I hope I have described clearly :-)
You are right. He removed the grove for the finger tips!
and I have a nice, broad and flat contact area for the middle phalanx which extends till the middle of the distal joint.
So the bone of the middle phalanx is in perfect, flat contact with the front of the grip.
The sharp edge (flush with the left side of the grip) really fits in between the first and middle phalanx.
Cesare used the words "the phalanx must hook" on the grip. And this is the feeling I got when he was happy with the work. The second and third finger are really hooking on the edge. I feel the edge exactly in between the phalanxes and I have a great feeling of the 2 middle phalanx bones being in flat contact with the wood.
The tip is free in the air and does not have a groove, as you see in many books and reccomendations.
I hope I have described clearly :-)
Seamaster,
page 9, top left figure of this guide written by Jan-Erik Aeply: you see the groove for the finger tips.
In my grip, Morini has filled up the groove, so that the middle phalanx can touch, and the distal joints "hook" on the edge.
page 9, top left figure of this guide written by Jan-Erik Aeply: you see the groove for the finger tips.
In my grip, Morini has filled up the groove, so that the middle phalanx can touch, and the distal joints "hook" on the edge.
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How to build "top lip" ?
This discussion is very interesting, and the pictures also. I have a question I hope someone can help me with (or guide me to where to find the answer).
I have a LP10 with at standard large grip. When viewing the pictures shown ,I find that the top "lip"of my grip, right below back sights, does not extend as far back as the one shown. The rest of the grip is changed with adding and removing mass, but I cannot see how to do this with this part. I think that just adding mass will be to weak and break off. Do I have to attach some kind of small steel plate, drill and attach some tiny steel rods and then add mass, or just buy a new grip with this in place ??
Of course the best option would be to go to Italy, but for now I will have to try for myself.
I have a LP10 with at standard large grip. When viewing the pictures shown ,I find that the top "lip"of my grip, right below back sights, does not extend as far back as the one shown. The rest of the grip is changed with adding and removing mass, but I cannot see how to do this with this part. I think that just adding mass will be to weak and break off. Do I have to attach some kind of small steel plate, drill and attach some tiny steel rods and then add mass, or just buy a new grip with this in place ??
Of course the best option would be to go to Italy, but for now I will have to try for myself.
Lindy,
Cesare cut a piece of wood and used Loctite to glue it. Then he added pinches of wood powder on the joint and immediately put drops of Loctite in the powder. In this way he increased the thickness of the connection (obviously at the bottom of the tail). You will see smoke coming out!.
The filler is 2 components wood epoxy filler, from Industria Chimica Reggiana, somebody already mentioned this product in another post. Is very cheap in Italy , and being epoxy, very strong!
Hope this helps....
Just want to add that the piece of extension was glued head to head... So In those few millimeters of thickness of the original tail
Cesare cut a piece of wood and used Loctite to glue it. Then he added pinches of wood powder on the joint and immediately put drops of Loctite in the powder. In this way he increased the thickness of the connection (obviously at the bottom of the tail). You will see smoke coming out!.
The filler is 2 components wood epoxy filler, from Industria Chimica Reggiana, somebody already mentioned this product in another post. Is very cheap in Italy , and being epoxy, very strong!
Hope this helps....
Just want to add that the piece of extension was glued head to head... So In those few millimeters of thickness of the original tail
Just to clarify, Loctite is a brand name not a specific product. Blue Loctite is commonly used as a lightweight thread locker for nuts and bolts, and of course there are other grades with more or less strength. But the type Cesare was no doubt using was nothing to do with the thread-lockers associated commonly with the Loctite name, rather it was a cyanoacrylate adhesive, most commonly known in North America under the brand name Krazy Glue. The best grade of this CA adhesive I'm familiar with it Hot Stuff, sold through Lee Valley Tools or other outlets. This industrial grade CA is probably better suited for a permanent bond of an oily hardwood with thin dimensions such as this projection of the grip than the Loctite brand, which I've found to fail more easily than Hot Stuff in stressed applications.
Gerard, thanks for making this US specific.
I used Loctite with the 'UK meaning' :-)
There are countless fantastic Loctite products. I use the green (I guess what you are naming as blue) one in my lab for thread locker. The red one will seal threads permanently and you will simply break the metal, rather then the thread if you try to undo.
The one Cesare was using was 400 something... May be 401 or 402, but I am not sure. The Loctite web page is very detailed and one finds any glue for any purpose.
Again thanks for your inout
I used Loctite with the 'UK meaning' :-)
There are countless fantastic Loctite products. I use the green (I guess what you are naming as blue) one in my lab for thread locker. The red one will seal threads permanently and you will simply break the metal, rather then the thread if you try to undo.
The one Cesare was using was 400 something... May be 401 or 402, but I am not sure. The Loctite web page is very detailed and one finds any glue for any purpose.
Again thanks for your inout
Just out of curiosity, did he make the grip taking into account the adjustment screws on the pistol or where they screwed all the way in?
Also can you describe the feel of the epoxy resin. Did he do anything to make it grippier, like strippeling on wood grips? Or does it have a smooth finish?
And finally, can he make that grip in "all wood"?
Thanks for your patience and congratulations on a very nice looking grip.
Also can you describe the feel of the epoxy resin. Did he do anything to make it grippier, like strippeling on wood grips? Or does it have a smooth finish?
And finally, can he make that grip in "all wood"?
Thanks for your patience and congratulations on a very nice looking grip.
Rmca
The last but one tuning which he made was rising the front sight by putting material between the shelf and the hand, once he had risen the adjustable shelf till the end.
Till that moment he had not considered the adjustment screws. He also realised that he had to rotate the pistol towards the left. I think that till that moment he believed that LP10E had no possibility of adjustment. When I told him that there were the adjipustment screws than he used them to rise the front sight a bit further and also to rotate towards the left.
Had I not told him, I had the feeling that he was about to modify the grip.
The resin is not slippery and I even do not have the feeling that it is not wood!
Previously I had tried to modify myself and I employed a two component polyester filler which I got from a wood worker. That one looked and felt like gyps plaster.
He can copy the final grip in wood , but not for the LP10e. However he told me that you cannot manage to copy also the 'fine tuning'.
Moreover he expects that with time one needs to apply fine adjustment, if one is looking for keeping the perfect fit.
So, basically he does not advice getting a wood copy, unless one is happy with a good but not perfect fit.
The last but one tuning which he made was rising the front sight by putting material between the shelf and the hand, once he had risen the adjustable shelf till the end.
Till that moment he had not considered the adjustment screws. He also realised that he had to rotate the pistol towards the left. I think that till that moment he believed that LP10E had no possibility of adjustment. When I told him that there were the adjipustment screws than he used them to rise the front sight a bit further and also to rotate towards the left.
Had I not told him, I had the feeling that he was about to modify the grip.
The resin is not slippery and I even do not have the feeling that it is not wood!
Previously I had tried to modify myself and I employed a two component polyester filler which I got from a wood worker. That one looked and felt like gyps plaster.
He can copy the final grip in wood , but not for the LP10e. However he told me that you cannot manage to copy also the 'fine tuning'.
Moreover he expects that with time one needs to apply fine adjustment, if one is looking for keeping the perfect fit.
So, basically he does not advice getting a wood copy, unless one is happy with a good but not perfect fit.