4H competition muzzlelaoder
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
4H competition muzzlelaoder
New Jersey is looking into doing muzzleloader at nationals this year. Relatively new in this disapline. Does anyone have an idea of a good firearm to use in the Muzzleloading competition. Can you get by with just one or do you need two different? Thanks for any info you can give.
Qualification to my post here: I'm an air rifle coach & smallbore rifle coach.
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While I've played with the muzzle loaders we have I think the first thing you are going to run into is that the newer "modern" rifles will shoot the conical bullets very well .... while it's not impossible, to get these fast twist barrels to shoot the 4-H required round balls, it takes a LOT of work developing the correct loads that are different for every gun.
A great article that is a good starting point is here:
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/myweb ... st_twi.htm
If I was to think about fielding a ML team, I almost think I would find a replica with a slow twist barrel optimized for those round balls. This would also take you to a caplock as well I think.
Other than building a custom type modern "409" primed gun with a slow twist bbl.
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Personally, I cannot for the life of me get my 409 primed fast twist to shoot roundballs for nothing. I can shoot FANTASTIC groups with saboted copper slugs (Barnes), even to 100 yds --- but my shooters think it's funny to watch me shoot a roundball out of the gun ... just a big spiral watching the patch burn and smoke downrange.
As I've said ... some can get the newer guns to work with rounds ... me not even close to being patient enough to try this more
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While I've played with the muzzle loaders we have I think the first thing you are going to run into is that the newer "modern" rifles will shoot the conical bullets very well .... while it's not impossible, to get these fast twist barrels to shoot the 4-H required round balls, it takes a LOT of work developing the correct loads that are different for every gun.
A great article that is a good starting point is here:
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/myweb ... st_twi.htm
If I was to think about fielding a ML team, I almost think I would find a replica with a slow twist barrel optimized for those round balls. This would also take you to a caplock as well I think.
Other than building a custom type modern "409" primed gun with a slow twist bbl.
===========
Personally, I cannot for the life of me get my 409 primed fast twist to shoot roundballs for nothing. I can shoot FANTASTIC groups with saboted copper slugs (Barnes), even to 100 yds --- but my shooters think it's funny to watch me shoot a roundball out of the gun ... just a big spiral watching the patch burn and smoke downrange.
As I've said ... some can get the newer guns to work with rounds ... me not even close to being patient enough to try this more
In the traditional muzzleloading rifle universe, I would strongly recommend the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 caliber (percussion). I would also recommend adding the Lyman #57GPR receiver sight and the Lyman #17AEU front target sight. This rifle has a 1 in 60” twist, which works well for the patched round balls required in 4-H competition; it is the only rifle you need for all the matches shot in the 4-H National Invitational. Our 4-H club has owned and used several makes of traditional muzzleloading rifles over the years (Thompson Center, CVA, Traditions, etc.), and the Lyman is definitely the best of the bunch, in my experience. They are well made and easy to clean and maintain. These rifles perform equally well with either Pyrodex or black powder.
As a 4-H certified instructor, you can order products directly from Lyman (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders) at a significant discount (40% off on rifles & sights); call their customer service department for current 4-H prices and details on ordering. They generally require a FAX letter of request on your 4-H club letterhead with the listed items you want to purchase, a copy of your 4-H instructor certificate, and another page with a short paragraph description of your 4-H program.
For .50 cal rifles, I prefer the .495” swaged round ball over a lubed 0.018” thick pillow ticking patch for best results. The .490” ball is the most commonly carried ball size in stores like Cabela’s, Bass Pro, or Gander Mountain, so you’ll likely have to order online to get the .495” size. There are many good muzzleloading sites online from which to order.
My kids and I have spent a lot of time shooting our rifles from the bench to determine the best powder charge for each of the distances shot in the various muzzleloading matches (25, 40, 50, 60, 77, & 100 yards/meters). My preference is to regulate the point of impact for each distance by changing only the powder charge and keeping the sights fixed, rather than by changing the sights for each distance. Depending on the rifle (each one is different), this method usually works for distances out to 77 yards/meters, but many (if not most) rifles will also need an elevation sight adjustment when shooting out to 100 yards in the silhouette match. We generally start at 30-35 grain level for the 25 yard/meter distance and work up from there. The maximum powder charge allowed at the 4-H Nationals is 60 grains.
My oldest son was selected for the 2011 Texas 4-H Muzzleloading Team for the 4-H National Invitational; both of my daughters are hoping to be selected for the 2014 TX Muzzleloading Team. Perhaps we’ll see you in Nebraska next year!
As a 4-H certified instructor, you can order products directly from Lyman (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders) at a significant discount (40% off on rifles & sights); call their customer service department for current 4-H prices and details on ordering. They generally require a FAX letter of request on your 4-H club letterhead with the listed items you want to purchase, a copy of your 4-H instructor certificate, and another page with a short paragraph description of your 4-H program.
For .50 cal rifles, I prefer the .495” swaged round ball over a lubed 0.018” thick pillow ticking patch for best results. The .490” ball is the most commonly carried ball size in stores like Cabela’s, Bass Pro, or Gander Mountain, so you’ll likely have to order online to get the .495” size. There are many good muzzleloading sites online from which to order.
My kids and I have spent a lot of time shooting our rifles from the bench to determine the best powder charge for each of the distances shot in the various muzzleloading matches (25, 40, 50, 60, 77, & 100 yards/meters). My preference is to regulate the point of impact for each distance by changing only the powder charge and keeping the sights fixed, rather than by changing the sights for each distance. Depending on the rifle (each one is different), this method usually works for distances out to 77 yards/meters, but many (if not most) rifles will also need an elevation sight adjustment when shooting out to 100 yards in the silhouette match. We generally start at 30-35 grain level for the 25 yard/meter distance and work up from there. The maximum powder charge allowed at the 4-H Nationals is 60 grains.
My oldest son was selected for the 2011 Texas 4-H Muzzleloading Team for the 4-H National Invitational; both of my daughters are hoping to be selected for the 2014 TX Muzzleloading Team. Perhaps we’ll see you in Nebraska next year!
One thought, you might consider 45 cal rifles. Little to no difference in wind drift, but you would have much greater flexibility in loading (considering your 60 gr max load in the rules). Some 50s take70 to get shooting well, and one of mine doesn't do well with less than 85 gr.
I've never seen a 45 that wouldn't shoot well with some load under 60 grains.
The Lyman is probably the best for the money, but the older CVA and the TC can be very accurate.
I've never seen a 45 that wouldn't shoot well with some load under 60 grains.
The Lyman is probably the best for the money, but the older CVA and the TC can be very accurate.
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little pellet
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:58 am
While 60 grains is 4-H max. our state knows nothing about following 4-H national trends. sometimes i think our 4-H says "lets do something different from 4-H Nationals..."
anyway...
i've seen kids try to shoot loads in excess of 100 grains because "that is what their dad used for hunting" Please don't let the kids be beat up and the whole firing line be disrupted from such insane loads. We've shot it for a decade using 35 to 45 grains of powder behind a spherical ball.
the great plains is probably the best traditional rifle BUT, is too heavy/long for younger/slighter built youth.
does cva still made the cub or was it the bear? plastic stock, short barreled....i picked up one at wallmart for $49.99 one closing season. i am always on the lookout for quality used BP rifles at cheap price at gun shops to outfit our 4-H club.
anyway...
i've seen kids try to shoot loads in excess of 100 grains because "that is what their dad used for hunting" Please don't let the kids be beat up and the whole firing line be disrupted from such insane loads. We've shot it for a decade using 35 to 45 grains of powder behind a spherical ball.
the great plains is probably the best traditional rifle BUT, is too heavy/long for younger/slighter built youth.
does cva still made the cub or was it the bear? plastic stock, short barreled....i picked up one at wallmart for $49.99 one closing season. i am always on the lookout for quality used BP rifles at cheap price at gun shops to outfit our 4-H club.