How inaccurate is range (practice) ammo?

[Sa-tevo]

In the interest of improving my shooting skills, I have been practicing with 10 meter airpistol and really enjoy it a lot. It lets me practice most of the pistol shooting skills at a reasonable cost, and I like how there are no mechanical reasons for not shooting an "X". I learned to shoot pistol by taking an NRA Basic Pistol course with a good instructor, and if I remember everything he taught me and get out of the way, I can make a very good shot. I'll park one outside the 7 ring maybe every second or third ten shot target, and know how it happened.

I've noticed with 9mm loads mainly that when practicing range ammo could be all over the place and premium loads were a lot tighter. 45 ACP wasn't as bad but still I wonder how much ammunition quality adds to the accuracy equation and what others' experiences have been. Is range practice ammo generally pretty lousy?

Any recommendations for 45 ACP practice ammo for a beginner? It's possible that when shooting premium defensive ammo the accuracy is due to being aware that a dollar (or more) was going downrange at each trigger pull.

[GunRunner]

Most cheap ammo is just that, its ok for the range, ok to practice your form and fundamentals but yu can never gauge your skill with it. Inconsistency give inconsistent rewards. You need to reload, then you could shoot good ammo all the time.

[jackh]

Within reasonable parameters most any safe ammo will do. But what to expect from it must be decided, and then keep your fool head on straight. Find out what an ammo-gun combination will do under as ideal conditions as you can make. Machine rest or sandbag/armrest the combination with as much control as you can. Then set your expectations for that ammo-gun combination accordingly. Consider it as testing you, and your sights and your trigger. Learn a good shot when you feel it and see it in the sights. What happens at the target is not important.

Spend your time training you, and not so much the gun and ammo. But along the way do seek the gun-ammo combination that is itself ideal.

[Rover]

In a word: reload. Then you'll know what you have and spend a lot less money.

Beg, borrow, or buy a Ransom Rest. Once again, you will KNOW.

Everything else is just internet BS.

[6string]

I second Rover's advice. But to answer the question in the thread title, range ammo is basically junk.
First, the brass is usually mixed headstamp with indeterminate number of loads already through it. The pressure variations caused by the mixed brass is especially critical with smaller cartridges like the 9mm. The fact that the brass has been shot in a variety of guns of mixed quality and chamber dimensions means you can easily experience jams or even a blown out case where the case head is potentially unsupported. This is potentially dangerous to you and your firearm. The problem is exacerbated by the number of times the brass has been reloaded.
I've even seen loaded rounds with split case necks because they weren't properly inspected.
Second, you have no way of knowing what sort of conditions or safeguards were used in the loading process. I have seen a lot of squib loads and misfires with this stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about a double charge!
Third, there's no way of knowing when and if a change in components has been made to a given load. You might be happy enough with a load only to find that it shoots entirely different due to a change in components.

Honestly, I would never even put this stuff through any firearm I own.
Please consider loading your own. You'll be glad you did!

Best Regards,
Jim

[Isabel1130]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of 9mm range ammo did you find to have bad groups, and at what distance are you shooting and with what gun?

I find Winchester white box to be pretty darn good in my gun, even at 50 yards, so I am interested in what you have been using.

[Sa-tevo]

First off, thanks for the replies. This board is a great resource for a beginner, with a high signal to noise ratio. I've made several small notebooks from searches on subjects here.

At this point I think I will hold off on investing in reloading equipment until I show aptitude with a Ruger Mark III that I've cleaned up. If that goes well then I can justify moving up in equipment. So far at 10 meters the Ruger matches the air pistol, so I know I'm on the right path there.

The local range stocks Atlanta Arms & Ammo reman ammo for range use and I've shot about thirty boxes since learning how to shoot last year. I've never had any faults with it in 45 ACP, 9mm or 38 spl other than one 45 ACP round that wouldn't feed into the chamber of a Nighthawk Custom 1911 my instructor was letting me try. I've also tried a box of cheap Federal 9mm that came in a white box, and that was really all over the place. Premium defensive ammo seems to shoot very well.

My centerfire pistols are what you find in the $400-500 range, just consumer models with teeny-tiny sights with crappy triggers, purchased before I found out about precision stuff. The Mark III is the closest to being a target pistol. I need to hog out the rear sight blade to get some light around the front sight.

[Rover]

"I need to hog out the rear sight blade to get some light around the front sight."

http://www.australiancynic.com/NYGORD.h ... out_Sights?

Easily done with a cheap 3/16" chain-saw file from the hardware store.

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... rear+sight

You may wish to look at a Volquartson trigger for that Ruger.

[C. Perkins]

I shoot service pistol with a modified M9.
For the long line I use either Atlanta Arms 115gr(AMU) or use my reloads that are just as good.
For the short line have had no issues with Winchester white box target(Q4172).(saves my atlanta and reloads).
Out of my 13 eic matches my average is 265 so take it for what it is worth.

Clarence

[Sa-tevo]

Rover

Thanks for the links. Your club looks good too.

The rear sight blade for the SS bull barrel target model I have has convenient grooves around the notch, which I plan to use as material removal guides. While normally I don't think a Dremel is the right tool for firearms and is better suited for toenails, I've done some carving on other projects in the past with a cut-off disk and I think this is a good application. The 1-2-1 picture looks good to my eyes, but then I think offhand shooting works well because I can stick the front sight far enough out that it is in focus.

I have a few Volquartsen parts installed. I found their trigger to be a sloppy fit in the trigger pin and ended up shimming it to take out most of the side-to-side slop (I should probably bush it), but I like being able to use the overtravel screw as a finger placement guide. If I did it again I would try a Clark trigger, as it sounds like it needs to be reamed to fit. I replaced the titanium Volquartsen disconnector with their machined unit that just came out. The titanium one flexed a bit and was dinged by the bolt. The machined disconnector needed some polishing but feels stiffer. I also use the Volquartsen sear, but use a stock hammer with a press fit bushing. I had a few times with the Volquartsen hammer when the sear wouldn't reset with the stiffer stock spring. (Confirmed by being not able to engage the safety) The Ruger itself was a piece of junk, like it was a high school machine shop project done by a kid who should have been in the carpentry class. Lots of burrs and scrapes in the handle. If I take it all apart again I might replace some pins with drill shafts. Also added were a blast shield, a loaded chamber indicator filler, a Volquartsen firing pin and extractor.

Now I need to find what brand of ammo it likes, which is a challenge these days due to folks who slept through civics class. So far I've only run CCI Mini-Mag through it, but will try some SK and Wolf standard velocity now that the pistol has been cleaned up.

Clarence

I think we are talking about different products offered by Atlanta Arms & Ammo. I've only shot their low buck stuff so far.

[Isabel1130]

Did I read you correctly, in that you are shooting no further than ten meters?

Even the worst stuff that Atlanta Arms and Ammo would willingly put their name on, should be one hole at fifty feet and under. If you are getting a spread at short distances there may be more going on, than just the ammo.

[C. Perkins]

From a reliable source the Atlanta arms .45 practice ammo is nothing but their better line but in mixed brass.
Cannot comment on the 9mm but would think the same(but I think anything atlanta arms puts their name in will be good ammunition).

Clarence

[Sa-tevo]

Isabel1130

Since becoming aware of 10 meter air pistol and purchasing some basic equipment to practice with it, I then tried to duplicate the air pistol results with cartridge pistols. To compare them I use 10 meters. Shooting a 22lr matches my air pistol results very well. Shooting centerfire pistols with range ammo gives me different results.

The 45 ACP ammo seems to be reasonable, I'll take ownership of where they go. The 9mm gives me fits and makes me doubt. I know the striker fired pistol I was shooting moves the front sight to the right sometimes when dryfiring, but the results are spread low left with cartridges. Hammer fired 45 goes where I expect it, displaying any bad habits involved. I were ear plugs and high db ear protection, and hold the pistol inline with my forearm, middle part of the fingers perpendicular to the axis of the barrel. Recoil seems mild with both cartridges.

Yes, it could be a software problem. Or lack of experience.

[Isabel1130]

Isabel1130

Since becoming aware of 10 meter air pistol and purchasing some basic equipment to practice with it, I then tried to duplicate the air pistol results with cartridge pistols. To compare them I use 10 meters. Shooting a 22lr matches my air pistol results very well. Shooting centerfire pistols with range ammo gives me different results.

The 45 ACP ammo seems to be reasonable, I'll take ownership of where they go. The 9mm gives me fits and makes me doubt. I know the striker fired pistol I was shooting moves the front sight to the right sometimes when dryfiring, but the results are spread low left with cartridges. Hammer fired 45 goes where I expect it, displaying any bad habits involved. I were ear plugs and high db ear protection, and hold the pistol inline with my forearm, middle part of the fingers perpendicular to the axis of the barrel. Recoil seems mild with both cartridges.

Yes, it could be a software problem. Or lack of experience.

Bigger guns with heavier triggers will magnify triggering errors. Shots low and left if you are a right handed shooter indicate jerking, although I prefer to think of it as an anticipatory error (you are getting more parts of your hand, other than just your trigger finger involved in the shot)
My advice is to take your big guns (22 on up) outdoors, and check your ammo with a steady rest on a sandbag. a ransom rest can be better if the rest has been tuned up by a excellent machinist (and you have it on a very stable concrete base) however sand bags with decent triggering should be sufficient.

Getting good results with an air pistol is a sign that your hold is good one but bullseye is a triggering game, not a hold game like Air pistol, and I think you will find that it will really help to take as much of the human element as possible out of any ammo tests before making up your mind.



If you plan to eventually shoot bullseye outdoors, ammo and gun accuracy tests should be done at 50 yards. If you are only going to shoot indoors, 25 yard accuracy will usually do.

As someone once explained to me, there is not a linear relationship between gun and ammo accuracy at different distances. That is, a one inch group at 10 meters does not indicate a two inch group at 20 meters.
There is a point, depending on the velocity and the shape of the bullet, and the tightness of the barrel, where the round becomes very unstable.
Gun and ammo combinations that would yield one hole in a barrel test at a short distance such as 10 meters will often show an incredible spread at 25 or 50 yards.
I have seen bullets that were on call as a ten go into the target sideways in the six ring at 50 yards, because of issues that had very little to do with the quality of the ammo.

[motorcycle_dan]

I'd stay with the .22 and put my effort into making sure all shots were in the black.
My humble opinion is to say away from 9mm. I know some specialized target pistols exist but not worth the effort to learn a different pistol. At least 1/3 of your score will be .45 so why not learn that for CF as well.
It is my opinion that the recoil of a well tuned 1911/target ammo combination is considerably less than a 9mm (or .32 for that matter)
I do not know a precision bullseye shooter that does not reload. So keep that in mind. I do know many that still use a single stage press to do all their reloading however. The uber slick big blue press is nice but a used rock chucker or cheap Lee is better than buying what ever is on the ammo shelf. I now have two Dillon 650's but between them is a single stage Lee classic cast press. You will always be the weakest link in your marksmanship goals. Look for used gear from other competition shooters. Get into a weekly league and let it be known you are looking for stuff. Start attending matches now. You can shoot .22 all way through at most matches. I bet someone will offer you a .45 to use if you attend more than once. What area are you located?

[Sa-tevo]

motorcycle_dan,

The 9mm was a Ruger SR9c I was trying my hand at, just something in the cabinet that needed to be practiced with. I got much better results with a P345, but the 1911 platform is my favorite, a very comfortable pistol to shoot and easy to control. Unfortunately I'll have to wait a while for funds for a competition model, and the clone that I have isn't worth upgrading unless I want George Washington's hatchet.

For now I'll work to master the Ruger Mark III. I also have a feeling I'll run across a press from the black plastic crowd after the silliness passes.

I live just south of Atlanta. River Bend Gun Club in Dawsonville Georgia has a monthly shoot and they are about two hours away. I need to go there. I'm also hoping that if I take some B-16 targets to the nearby ranges and not shoot like the kids I'll meet some other precision shooters in the area.

[lilyyang]

Even the worst stuff that Atlanta Arms and Ammo would willingly put their name on, should be one hole at fifty feet and under. If you are getting a spread at short distances there may be more going on, than just the ammo.

[RandomShotz]

To lilyyang:

DIE, SPAMMER!!!!