After shooting any of my rimfire or centerfire pistols, I will run a patch
down the bore with some Breakfree on it, using a Patchworm device. I
have always done this in order to keep the bore from rusting. No brush
is used, simply a solvent soaked patch. I was afraid that if this was not
done, that the accumulated residue (especially the sooty, carbon-type)
would attract moisture and cause corrosion inside the barrel. Before firing
again, I simply run a dry patch or 2 through the bore to remove the old
Breakfree along with whatever fouling happened to loosen up since my
last visit to the range. When I mentioned this to a new shooter in our
league, some of the others stated that this was not necessary!? They
based this on the fact that .22LR ammo is externally lubricated and that
this lube would prevent bore corrosion on it's own. They also claim that
the same thing happens when using all lead bullets that have a wax lube
inside a groove in the bullet. Dear Ol' Dad taught me long ago that a
firearm's bore should always be kept "wet", except when actually
shooting. Was he wrong? What do all of you guys out there do with your
pistols at the end of the day? In addition to keeping the bore "wet", I
should mention that I do give the pistol a quick wipe down with a clean
rag to remove all fingerprints, sweat, etc. so that it's outside finish is
preserved.
Bore Care?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
It depends. If you live in a "wet" environment then a degree of oil use is warranted, but 22 bores almost never need cleaning. If you live high and dry like we do in Alberta, it is not necessary. Indeed, though it may appall some, most of us here operate on the "don't clean it until it starts to malfunction" system. Means my main competition guns go two to four years between cleanings, but 22s may get some of the gunk scraped out of the breech area occasionally, barrels never.
Of course you will get other and contradictory opinions on any of these issues.
Dr Jim
Of course you will get other and contradictory opinions on any of these issues.
Dr Jim
I come from a hunting and F-Class (long range rifle) background. I clean until the barrel is like a mirror. I also use a borescope so I am probably at the other extreme. My thinking is when I have spent my money for a precision firearm I want the tolerances as close to what was built as possible. Having carbon/lead/etc. fouling is not good in my mind. That said I always fire a couple of rounds before shooting for score. I am a rank beginner at bullseye pistol shooting so maybe I am way off.
Chip
Chip
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C. Perkins
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- Location: Was a Bullseye Master
As far as a .22 goes I only run a nylon bore brush through it until the carbon ring in the chamber is gone.
I do this in my free pistol after every match(about 70 rounds[60+sighters])
In my marvel it is about every 200-300 rounds.
In my BSA MarkII rifle, after every session, what ever the round count is.
As long as you use good ammunition there is no need of a brass brush or a patch.
I will emphisize that you NEVER use a brass brush in a .22, NEVER.
Just use good quality lead lubed ammunition.
Now centerfire is a bit different for me.
If using jacketed, then yes, clean the copper fouling out.
If using lead, do what it takes to get the lead out of the rifling.
Clarence
I do this in my free pistol after every match(about 70 rounds[60+sighters])
In my marvel it is about every 200-300 rounds.
In my BSA MarkII rifle, after every session, what ever the round count is.
As long as you use good ammunition there is no need of a brass brush or a patch.
I will emphisize that you NEVER use a brass brush in a .22, NEVER.
Just use good quality lead lubed ammunition.
Now centerfire is a bit different for me.
If using jacketed, then yes, clean the copper fouling out.
If using lead, do what it takes to get the lead out of the rifling.
Clarence
Bore Care
I also prefer to keep the bore in my pistols "wet" when I am not shooting
them. Doing this really softens the accumulated shooting residue. I find
that a brass brush is never needed to clean out the chamber or the bore.
Simply running a dry patch down the barrel prior to shooting just really
cleans everything out nicely. Regardless of the caliber, I will disassemble
and throughly clean my Bullseye guns after 1,000 rounds or so have been
put through them.
them. Doing this really softens the accumulated shooting residue. I find
that a brass brush is never needed to clean out the chamber or the bore.
Simply running a dry patch down the barrel prior to shooting just really
cleans everything out nicely. Regardless of the caliber, I will disassemble
and throughly clean my Bullseye guns after 1,000 rounds or so have been
put through them.
Bore Care?
I curious about the reservations against using brass bore brushes. Several harsh admonitions, but no explanation why. If brass bore brushes are so damaging then the U.S. military has millions of weapons that must be virtually useless. I know that my unit armorer would never have accepted a weapon after a range detail with a bore that had not been thoroughly scrubbed with a brass bore brush. I've often heard of "bronze" bore brushes, but I think those words (bronze and brass) are interchanged often, and I'm not sure which is truly accurate. I also recognize that the military "service" weapons are more about reliable function than they are about X-ring accuracy. That being said, the Marine Corps has always prided itself on marksmanship skills. "Every Marine is, first, and foremost" a rifleman". I would be surprized indeed to learn that the Marine Corps leadership espoused weapon maintenance practices that were in any way detrimental to long range accuracy. Bottom line to me is this: Is the metal in the brush harder or softer than the steel in the bore? If it is considerably softer, it shouldn't be detrimental to the health of the bore. I'm not a gunsmith, nor a metalurgist, so if anyone has real expertise in this area, we would all appreciate your input.
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
I have asked virtually the same question as Jar-Hed on this forum at least twice and not gotten a satisfactory answer. I shoot lead bullets in .45 and .38 and have to scrub the bore rigorously (albeit carefully) with bronze brushes, usually augmented with strands of bronze wool, to get the leading out. I have not noticed any degradation of the mirror finish on those bores even after thousands of rounds, and I clean after each session which usually means after less than 100 rounds. I am beginning to think that .22 shooters are excruciatingly fussy about their bores more as a ritual than practical necessity.
AFAIK, brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and bronze is an alloy of copper and other elements that may include tin, lead, silicon, phosphorous, zinc and other stuff. The terms are often used interchangeably (and incorrectly), with "brass" usually reserved for yellow alloys and bronze for everything else. I believe bore brushes are, strictly speaking, bronze.
Roger
AFAIK, brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and bronze is an alloy of copper and other elements that may include tin, lead, silicon, phosphorous, zinc and other stuff. The terms are often used interchangeably (and incorrectly), with "brass" usually reserved for yellow alloys and bronze for everything else. I believe bore brushes are, strictly speaking, bronze.
Roger
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C. Perkins
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- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:31 pm
- Location: Was a Bullseye Master
Well gentlemen;
I will explain it the best I can.
My earlier post and my other posts about this subject are always the same.
I do not use anything in a .22 barrel other than a nylon brush(notice .22 barrel)
Reason is that there is no NEED of anything stiffer than a nylon brush.
As long as you use good lubed .22 ammo(I use CCI-SV, Lapua and Eley)and all are sub sonic.
With a larger caliber, I say what ever it takes to get the lead out of the rifling.(brass, bronze what ever).
For cleaning barrels shooting jacketed ammo.
I just use Sweets 7.62 and follow a patch of hydrogen peroxide alternating until the copper is mostly gone.
I do not go to the point of being sterile.
Hope this helps.
Clarence
I will explain it the best I can.
My earlier post and my other posts about this subject are always the same.
I do not use anything in a .22 barrel other than a nylon brush(notice .22 barrel)
Reason is that there is no NEED of anything stiffer than a nylon brush.
As long as you use good lubed .22 ammo(I use CCI-SV, Lapua and Eley)and all are sub sonic.
With a larger caliber, I say what ever it takes to get the lead out of the rifling.(brass, bronze what ever).
For cleaning barrels shooting jacketed ammo.
I just use Sweets 7.62 and follow a patch of hydrogen peroxide alternating until the copper is mostly gone.
I do not go to the point of being sterile.
Hope this helps.
Clarence
Bore care?
The point of my post seems to have been missed. When someone states emphatically that you should "NEVER" to do something that has been done regularly throughout modern history, it get me worried. It is one thing to say that use of a brass (or bronze) brush is not necessary to achieve satisfactory maintenance of the bore. It is quite another to state that you should never use one. It leaves a large population of shooters concerned that perhaps they have been needlessly damaging their bores while they thought they were doing them good. I'm just trying to clear the air. Hoping someone with expert knowledge on the topic can set the rest of us straight.
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C. Perkins
- Posts: 480
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:31 pm
- Location: Was a Bullseye Master
Jar-hed;
I see your point.
There have been two camps about this question for several years.
Maybe within the next hundred years someone will come along with the answer that you are seeking.
In the mean time we will resume our personal cleaning strategy of the .22 barrel.
Good luck and good shooting.
Clarence
I see your point.
There have been two camps about this question for several years.
Maybe within the next hundred years someone will come along with the answer that you are seeking.
In the mean time we will resume our personal cleaning strategy of the .22 barrel.
Good luck and good shooting.
Clarence
Barrel care
Have any of you tried the lead away cloth?
Bore cleaning and reading have 2 things in common. Most people don't do either very well. But on the other hand, the guns generally get by anyway. Even in this thread, people seem to confuse the difference in shooting pistol / rifle / lead / jacketed. Each type has its own particular need.
On the other hand, if you have to scrub lead out of the pistol every time you shoot, you probably need to find better load / bullet fit / barrel.
Now I have a wide range of guns, but I do not clean after every shooting. As a matter of fact, full breakdown of the bullseye guns is only 2 - 3 times per year. But they are cleaned completely. I know some people that "clean" their .45 after every shooting session. Then I have to stop the match and show them how to take out the extractor and clean the internals of the slide. My personal preference is as follows:
.22 Pistol, needs chamber and rest of gun cleaned ever so often (maybe 500 rounds or so). No brushes of any kind down the bore, just on the chamber area. Primer and powder residue tends to gum up the actions long before bore is a issue on quality pistol with standard velocity lead ammo. Bore can usually just use a pull through with patch. Just squirt some Kroil down the bore between matches. MINIMAL lube (and I mean minimal) on slide rails, bolt, recoil spring, trigger internals, etc. I spend more time wiping off than putting on. Don't give that .22 primer crud any more to stick to than you have to.
.45 Match guns (Mostly Kart / Nowlin barrels). Just a brush and shot of Kroil after shooting, As stated, complete cleaning only 2 -3 times per year. Same concept for internals as .22, but slide rails and barrel locking points get lots of lube. (I shoot a very clean load so gumming up is not really an issue with the centerfire guns.) Quality barrels with good lead bullets do not lead. If they do, then change something.
Jacketed ammo requires something different and can be as time consuming as you want (varies from benchrest to military) but should generally be equivalent to the cost of the barrel :-))
Anyway, just listen to the gun and try something slightly different and see what happens. But don't go around thinking you have to spend more of your time cleaning than training. Finding time to get better generally means spending less time cleaning, loading or even shooting.
Spend more time loading than cleaning,
More time shooting than loading,
More time training than shooting,
More time thinking than training.
Cecil
On the other hand, if you have to scrub lead out of the pistol every time you shoot, you probably need to find better load / bullet fit / barrel.
Now I have a wide range of guns, but I do not clean after every shooting. As a matter of fact, full breakdown of the bullseye guns is only 2 - 3 times per year. But they are cleaned completely. I know some people that "clean" their .45 after every shooting session. Then I have to stop the match and show them how to take out the extractor and clean the internals of the slide. My personal preference is as follows:
.22 Pistol, needs chamber and rest of gun cleaned ever so often (maybe 500 rounds or so). No brushes of any kind down the bore, just on the chamber area. Primer and powder residue tends to gum up the actions long before bore is a issue on quality pistol with standard velocity lead ammo. Bore can usually just use a pull through with patch. Just squirt some Kroil down the bore between matches. MINIMAL lube (and I mean minimal) on slide rails, bolt, recoil spring, trigger internals, etc. I spend more time wiping off than putting on. Don't give that .22 primer crud any more to stick to than you have to.
.45 Match guns (Mostly Kart / Nowlin barrels). Just a brush and shot of Kroil after shooting, As stated, complete cleaning only 2 -3 times per year. Same concept for internals as .22, but slide rails and barrel locking points get lots of lube. (I shoot a very clean load so gumming up is not really an issue with the centerfire guns.) Quality barrels with good lead bullets do not lead. If they do, then change something.
Jacketed ammo requires something different and can be as time consuming as you want (varies from benchrest to military) but should generally be equivalent to the cost of the barrel :-))
Anyway, just listen to the gun and try something slightly different and see what happens. But don't go around thinking you have to spend more of your time cleaning than training. Finding time to get better generally means spending less time cleaning, loading or even shooting.
Spend more time loading than cleaning,
More time shooting than loading,
More time training than shooting,
More time thinking than training.
Cecil
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C. Perkins
- Posts: 480
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:31 pm
- Location: Was a Bullseye Master
PeterB;
I have only used Lead Away on my stainless guns to remove the residue on the front of the cylinders.
I have tryed it in barrels before but is to labor intense.
A Lewis lead remover is the way to go.
Do not use the Lead Away on blued guns cause it does have a mild abrasive and will remove the bluing if you are too heavy handed.
Cecil;
We are both in the same camp.
You are just a lot better writer than I am :)
Clarence
I have only used Lead Away on my stainless guns to remove the residue on the front of the cylinders.
I have tryed it in barrels before but is to labor intense.
A Lewis lead remover is the way to go.
Do not use the Lead Away on blued guns cause it does have a mild abrasive and will remove the bluing if you are too heavy handed.
Cecil;
We are both in the same camp.
You are just a lot better writer than I am :)
Clarence
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
Bore care?
CR10X,
I would be interested in the data for your "Clean load" for the .45. I currently shoot 4.5 W231 with a 185 gr. lead SWC (Zero) for the short line and 4.3 W231 with a 200 gr. lead SWC (Mastercast) for the long line. I am pleased with the accuracy with both of those loads, but they are dirty. I've had similar results with Bullseye powder. If I could get the same accuracy with a cleaner powder, I could be persuaded to switch.
I would be interested in the data for your "Clean load" for the .45. I currently shoot 4.5 W231 with a 185 gr. lead SWC (Zero) for the short line and 4.3 W231 with a 200 gr. lead SWC (Mastercast) for the long line. I am pleased with the accuracy with both of those loads, but they are dirty. I've had similar results with Bullseye powder. If I could get the same accuracy with a cleaner powder, I could be persuaded to switch.
The best overall LEAD load I've found for the .45 and Kart barrels is the Oregon Trail 200 gr. SWC over 3.85 gr of VV310. Crimp to .469 - .470. OAL averages about 1.238, but I use a bullet seater that fits on the bullet SWC shoulder. You will tweak the OAL a little for each barrel. Winchester LP primers, always.
I reload on a Dillon 650 (one is set up for .45 only), shell plate was tuned for almost "0" play and locator holes deburred as well. Powder drop is tuned and deburred and uses the old style spring return.
I seat the bullet in 2 steps, using station 3 for a partial seat (about 50%) using the SWC nose seater, then station 4 with the .45 seat that only touches the shoulder of the bullet. (Basically, in a dillon you can just drill out an extra seater with a 3/8 inch drill, there are some already done and for sale on e-bay usually) This gives a very consistent actual depth of seating into the case for reasons noted below. The noses of all bullets have enough variance to make ultra precise OAL measurements suspect if we are trying for consistent internal case space and chamber to SWC shoulder fit.
But all that is really trivial. Just try the OT bullet, use enough powder to get it moving (don't be a whimp) and see if it helps. Most people have leading problems because the bullet is trying to be moved too slow rather than too fast (at least for bullseye). There is generally a sweet zone for each barrel and bullet combination.
This load using Federal brass generally has single digit SD over 25 rounds. Not a large sample, but sufficient to back up the Ransom Rest results.
Once you get a good OAL for your gun, you can just substitute the Oregon Trail 180 gr SWC for a perfectly good short line load. By the way, because of the case space used, don't be surprised if the 200 gr load clocks a little faster than then 180 gr load. Remember, powder density / consistent case volume has a lot to do with consistent velocity and performance.
Of course this is just my load, came up with it over 10 years ago and have seen no need to change. Been through several guns and just didn't see the need to try anything else.
I reload on a Dillon 650 (one is set up for .45 only), shell plate was tuned for almost "0" play and locator holes deburred as well. Powder drop is tuned and deburred and uses the old style spring return.
I seat the bullet in 2 steps, using station 3 for a partial seat (about 50%) using the SWC nose seater, then station 4 with the .45 seat that only touches the shoulder of the bullet. (Basically, in a dillon you can just drill out an extra seater with a 3/8 inch drill, there are some already done and for sale on e-bay usually) This gives a very consistent actual depth of seating into the case for reasons noted below. The noses of all bullets have enough variance to make ultra precise OAL measurements suspect if we are trying for consistent internal case space and chamber to SWC shoulder fit.
But all that is really trivial. Just try the OT bullet, use enough powder to get it moving (don't be a whimp) and see if it helps. Most people have leading problems because the bullet is trying to be moved too slow rather than too fast (at least for bullseye). There is generally a sweet zone for each barrel and bullet combination.
This load using Federal brass generally has single digit SD over 25 rounds. Not a large sample, but sufficient to back up the Ransom Rest results.
Once you get a good OAL for your gun, you can just substitute the Oregon Trail 180 gr SWC for a perfectly good short line load. By the way, because of the case space used, don't be surprised if the 200 gr load clocks a little faster than then 180 gr load. Remember, powder density / consistent case volume has a lot to do with consistent velocity and performance.
Of course this is just my load, came up with it over 10 years ago and have seen no need to change. Been through several guns and just didn't see the need to try anything else.
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john bickar
- Posts: 618
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:58 am
- Location: Corner of Walk & Don't Walk
John:
That was from a post on the old bullseye list a long time ago. Not long after shooting with you at Bristol, TN. Back in the days when I could see the iron sights and thought I might be able to learn how to shot one day. I'm still trying to learn how to shoot all 10's. Hope you are doing well.
Cecil
That was from a post on the old bullseye list a long time ago. Not long after shooting with you at Bristol, TN. Back in the days when I could see the iron sights and thought I might be able to learn how to shot one day. I'm still trying to learn how to shoot all 10's. Hope you are doing well.
Cecil
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
Cecil, are you shooting the Columbia Tn regional over Memorial Day weekend? I will be there. KCR10X wrote:John:
That was from a post on the old bullseye list a long time ago. Not long after shooting with you at Bristol, TN. Back in the days when I could see the iron sights and thought I might be able to learn how to shot one day. I'm still trying to learn how to shoot all 10's. Hope you are doing well.
Cecil