I am the sole certified 4H leader within 60 miles. I took this outdoor 3P smallbore club over to keep it from going defunct. Quitting is out unless I destroy the club for a year or more. I will change events some to prevent identification:
I have a problem family: the youngest of brothers, the dad, and the mom. The student in question is spoiled rotten, and the parents have no control and see no problem with the kid’s behavior. The student who I’ll call Jr. gets angry and quits in the middle of his relay about every other week. Sr. sees no problem with Jr’s behavior – we all should accommodate Jr’s tantrums.
There are other situations, such as refusing to wear safety glasses and ear plugs until given a direct order (then sneaking the glasses off later). Also, events include failure to ground rifle/insert safety flag, firing extra shots over those issued for the target, and generally complaining.
I blame Sr as much as Jr for the many infractions because they are inseparable - Sr. should see and correct them as they occur. Jr. is a little over 10, Sr in his forties. Both seem imperious to instruction; they try to debate or get around the simplest instructions. For safety’s sake I have to monitor them (adult and student both) almost more than the other 15 all together.
This is my first year as 3P leader. Fortunately, there are some great parents and returning seniors to support me. But this problem seems to be on me alone. The previous leaders both worked past burnout and are steering clear completely. I admit to my inexperience (but I’m learning) and I have guest instructors with competition experience occasionally.
Am I worrying over nothing? Is it possible I’m overreacting, making a mountain out of a molehill? Might this situation resolve itself all by itself? I would like to ask them to leave and not return, for my sake and the good of the group. but… brothers do not deserve to be kicked out (but their record is not so good either). And amazingly, Sr and wife both want to become certified 4H leaders in 3PSB (as long as our club pays their 4H training fees, motel, gas and expenses!)
Help: Spoiled Rotten Student/Parents
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
Your way to nice. I'm one of two 4-H leaders so I feel your concern with club survival impacts. When we hold smallbore training many times we have 20 kids, so safety is paramount. The kids get a warning and if they violate it they are removed from the line. As a 4-H leader and range safety officer I do not want to jeopardize the other youth or myself.
As much as I enjoy other shooting organizations, 4-H is all about safety first (think about how many hours of safety training you had to sit through to be a leader?). Our state requires our kids in 4-H to sign an agreement each year that goes over safety, rules, etc and obligations to follow all those items. Its part of the 4-H program, and what is being taught in the shooting sports component of 4-H instead of just "how to shoot". I would use the larger, what is 4-H shooting about, to discuss it with the parents. This is especially critical if they want to be leaders. Again in our state, the organizational leader has the control on new leaders and can approve/disapprove or make them volunteers (not on the line) etc. Sounds like mom and dad could use 8 hours of safety and liability course work.
I do have minor issues with kids who shoot USA or CMP in the fall and transition to 4-H in the spring remembering glasses. But they usually fall into line once they get reminded. I also work with them on what they want to shoot that night, tailoring specific practice programs for them, as they usually have a higher level of shooting then the entry level 4-H kids and don't need to be subject to the same "basics".
Remember it is a privilege for them to have a program, and they need to respect you as a leader, even more so because your a volunteer. They dont need to attend if they can not follow the rules. Even if Jr is a hot shot, a little humility now will go a long way in the future. Get your extension agent involved, they can often help bridge the gap with parents and be a little more hard edged.
As much as I enjoy other shooting organizations, 4-H is all about safety first (think about how many hours of safety training you had to sit through to be a leader?). Our state requires our kids in 4-H to sign an agreement each year that goes over safety, rules, etc and obligations to follow all those items. Its part of the 4-H program, and what is being taught in the shooting sports component of 4-H instead of just "how to shoot". I would use the larger, what is 4-H shooting about, to discuss it with the parents. This is especially critical if they want to be leaders. Again in our state, the organizational leader has the control on new leaders and can approve/disapprove or make them volunteers (not on the line) etc. Sounds like mom and dad could use 8 hours of safety and liability course work.
I do have minor issues with kids who shoot USA or CMP in the fall and transition to 4-H in the spring remembering glasses. But they usually fall into line once they get reminded. I also work with them on what they want to shoot that night, tailoring specific practice programs for them, as they usually have a higher level of shooting then the entry level 4-H kids and don't need to be subject to the same "basics".
Remember it is a privilege for them to have a program, and they need to respect you as a leader, even more so because your a volunteer. They dont need to attend if they can not follow the rules. Even if Jr is a hot shot, a little humility now will go a long way in the future. Get your extension agent involved, they can often help bridge the gap with parents and be a little more hard edged.
You certainly sound frustrated, but this can be remedied fairly easily. When you have a quiet moment and you're away from the situation, take a notepad and write down all the behaviors that you would envision a successful student would consistently display. Make sure that they are phrased in the form of positive statements. For example - "Each student will consistently exhibit respectful behavior during all training sessions and matches". Stress behaviors that are easily observed and use the word "will". Avoid focusing on negative behaviors. For example - "Temper tantrums will be prohibited". These types of statements will potentially lead to arguing with parents/students about what even constitutes a tantrum. Avoid rehashing all prior incidents; stress the future.
Write the statements in final form; listed and numbered. Make copies. You need to call a meeting with both parents and the student. Explain that you want the student to have a successful experience in your program and you want to try everything you can to make this happen. Review each of the behavioral expectations and you may want to give examples of a positive outcome. "A student will continue to shoot to the best of his ability during a training session regardless of good or poor shots". "A student will listen to his coach and follows directions each week".
The next step is to inform the family that these expectations will be assessed each week nad feedback provided. If the student and parents comply, he will be encouraged to continue with the program. If not, he will be asked to terminate participation and will have to re-apply for admission at some later date if he is so motivated. This puts the responsibility back on the student and family. Guaranteed to work. Behavior will change or student will no longer be present if you do your part.
Dennis L
Write the statements in final form; listed and numbered. Make copies. You need to call a meeting with both parents and the student. Explain that you want the student to have a successful experience in your program and you want to try everything you can to make this happen. Review each of the behavioral expectations and you may want to give examples of a positive outcome. "A student will continue to shoot to the best of his ability during a training session regardless of good or poor shots". "A student will listen to his coach and follows directions each week".
The next step is to inform the family that these expectations will be assessed each week nad feedback provided. If the student and parents comply, he will be encouraged to continue with the program. If not, he will be asked to terminate participation and will have to re-apply for admission at some later date if he is so motivated. This puts the responsibility back on the student and family. Guaranteed to work. Behavior will change or student will no longer be present if you do your part.
Dennis L
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little pellet
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Excellent advice, but I am not qualified to write a behavior improvement plan, nor do I think local or district 4H would approve of me attempting to do so. As one who long ago aspired to a psychology degree, I know it is not ethical for me to act like I know more than I do. Also, so far these parents have been unwilling to come early or stay late to discuss issues.dlinden wrote:... Review each of the behavioral expectations and you may want to give examples of a positive outcome...
...inform the family that these expectations will be assessed each week nad feedback provided...
best advice: "Avoid rehashing all prior incidents; stress the future. "
Dennis L
I should speak with the extension agent at least. However, I don’t expect support. Some months ago when I tried to get help concerning some excessively absent students, I was told “those boys are from good families” and I should not worry about it. I never doubted they would return the rifles and such (but it took months), yet it was a clear signal that I am not part of the county good-ol-boy network.
My wife was very concerned when I took this on myself that, without a supporting assistant at every event, I would have great liability to any student/parent with an ax to grind. I am now feeling the heat of such a potential situation brewing. It may be time for me to reduce the risk by halving the event schedule and planning to drop 4H completely. The rifle club, not 4H, owns all the equipment, so we have some leverage with what kind of future program develops.
Help
I feel your pain brother! The first year is the hardest so take a deep breath and hang in there.
From your post the thing that sticks out the most to me is that you are working alone. At the very least you need to have a two trained people on the range if you have more than one shooter on the line. One person cannot coach a shooter and function as the range officer at the same time. The range officer has to be able to constantly monitor the line (hot and cold) at all times. I would ask a qualified member of the rifle club to serve as the range officer (even if they are not a certified 4-H leader) and have them explain the range rule and consequences for violations of stated (should be written and posted) rules. This would isolate you from being the bad guy and allow you to work positively with your 4-H group.
Try not to get distracted by the unpleasant things and focus on the productive things and don’t beat yourself up if everybody is not with the program. I hope this helps, good luck.
From your post the thing that sticks out the most to me is that you are working alone. At the very least you need to have a two trained people on the range if you have more than one shooter on the line. One person cannot coach a shooter and function as the range officer at the same time. The range officer has to be able to constantly monitor the line (hot and cold) at all times. I would ask a qualified member of the rifle club to serve as the range officer (even if they are not a certified 4-H leader) and have them explain the range rule and consequences for violations of stated (should be written and posted) rules. This would isolate you from being the bad guy and allow you to work positively with your 4-H group.
Try not to get distracted by the unpleasant things and focus on the productive things and don’t beat yourself up if everybody is not with the program. I hope this helps, good luck.
I have to say I agree with JHMartin. Safety is an absolute requirement and failure to follow safety rules means expulsion. A first offence warning is fine followed by an exclusion for a repeat.
It is sensible to explain this to everyone - rather than single out any individuals and start with a clean slate. Explain your rules very simply and state the consequences of people not following them.
Rob.
It is sensible to explain this to everyone - rather than single out any individuals and start with a clean slate. Explain your rules very simply and state the consequences of people not following them.
Rob.
While there may or may not be a safety issue, the problems described are bigger than that. You don't need a punishing response for everything that goes wrong in life, certainly at least not until there is some acknowledged code of what is and what is not acceptable behavior.
You also don't need a psychologist to write a behavioral intervention plan. Moses didn't attend graduate school. The Egyptians had a strict quota on how many Jews could attend institutions of higher learning. He took his i-pad up the mountain and came down with 10 expectations. I think he used the very first application of i-cloud so they could be downloaded to the minions. Now, if I had been there, I would have suggested that he write the commandments in all affirmative statements - "Thou shalt....." as opposed to "Thou shalt not....."
Dennis L
You also don't need a psychologist to write a behavioral intervention plan. Moses didn't attend graduate school. The Egyptians had a strict quota on how many Jews could attend institutions of higher learning. He took his i-pad up the mountain and came down with 10 expectations. I think he used the very first application of i-cloud so they could be downloaded to the minions. Now, if I had been there, I would have suggested that he write the commandments in all affirmative statements - "Thou shalt....." as opposed to "Thou shalt not....."
Dennis L
... but Moses was not surrounded by lawyers (wink wink). Neither was he immersed in a society of powerful angry parents perfectly capable of taking revenge through making an unfounded allegation that would destroy a person. (or maybe he was, remembering the golden calf...)
I know it looks easy to write a behavior modification plan. The articles I googled on the Internet said to just use positive statements and reward desired behaviors! But as one who has worked professionally in the field I can attest it is not easy nor are the outcomes certain even for supervised professionals. So please think twice about applying change agents over and above one's training and experience. A positive rewarding parenting or teaching style is one thing; playing psychologist without a license is another.
I know it looks easy to write a behavior modification plan. The articles I googled on the Internet said to just use positive statements and reward desired behaviors! But as one who has worked professionally in the field I can attest it is not easy nor are the outcomes certain even for supervised professionals. So please think twice about applying change agents over and above one's training and experience. A positive rewarding parenting or teaching style is one thing; playing psychologist without a license is another.
Here in New Mexico, we have a 4-H "Code of Conduct" form that all youth fill out. Also we have a slightly different one for the parents (not the leaders, they are different)
Here in our county, it is required for both if they are to attend any 4-H event.
Does your county use these as well? If you'd like to see our copies, PM me and I'll get them to you.
Here in our county, it is required for both if they are to attend any 4-H event.
Does your county use these as well? If you'd like to see our copies, PM me and I'll get them to you.
Everything is behavior modification. A slot machine in a casino, a teacher grading a test, paying someone a compliment, a contract for paying your mortgage, etc, etc. You don't need to be a psychologist or play psychologist, you just need an agreement. The more the terms of the agreement are specific and clear, the better the outcome. Like I said, Moses did a pretty good job with his problem people.
Not that it matters, but I am a licensed PhD clinical psychologist. I assure you, nobody is in any danger of violating any practice laws. For some good practice ammo, I would be happy to offer consultative services with a specialty in problem shooters :)
Dennis L
Not that it matters, but I am a licensed PhD clinical psychologist. I assure you, nobody is in any danger of violating any practice laws. For some good practice ammo, I would be happy to offer consultative services with a specialty in problem shooters :)
Dennis L
I know this may be sneaky, but 4H requires a coach for each shooter. How about asking the dad to coach one of the respectful kids (say he needs some extra help) and have a parent who is aware of the situation coach the problem kid. If the kid does not comply, have his coach call cease fire at any saftey violation. We also distribute only the amunition needed for each round.
The kids in my club are all well behaved. I am a volunteer. I do not have to put up with crap. The good kids do not what to be subjected to a spoiled brat.
In my many years working with kids on the line I can only remember one problem child. He decided he preferred shooting over getting kicked off the line.
In my many years working with kids on the line I can only remember one problem child. He decided he preferred shooting over getting kicked off the line.
A lot of excellent advice in the previous posts. I've been a coach for another sport for nearly a decade. One thing to do with parents is give them a job. Instructing a student besides their kid is okay. If a parent arrived someplace they weren't supposed to be, our coaching staff would send them away for ice, to stack chairs, anything menial that would keep them at bay.
I also agree with the poster who said call cease fire for any safety infraction. Peer pressure will work its magic. If that doesn't do it, politely tell them they may be more welcome at some other shooting program.
FWIW
I also agree with the poster who said call cease fire for any safety infraction. Peer pressure will work its magic. If that doesn't do it, politely tell them they may be more welcome at some other shooting program.
FWIW