looking for .45 recommendation for bullseye competition.

[corning]

I've dabbled on and off in bullseye pistol. It was always a lot of fun. I'll soon have more time on my hands and want to get back into it. The only thing I didn't have is a .45 (I have the .38 wad cutter, and a .22). In today's day and age, what recommendations does one have for a .45?

Thanks.

John

[Isabel1130]

I've dabbled on and off in bullseye pistol. It was always a lot of fun. I'll soon have more time on my hands and want to get back into it. The only thing I didn't have is a .45 (I have the .38 wad cutter, and a .22). In today's day and age, what recommendations does one have for a .45?

Thanks.

John

1911's which have been accurized for bullseye are ubiquitous and relatively cheap. Buy one used on gunbroker, or on this list
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/

Sell your .38 wadcutter to help fund it. You seldom see them on the line anymore for many reasons, including the main one, most people shoot higher scores with their 45.

[RandomShotz]

Isabel:

With apologies to the OP for the hijack, but when you wrote:

You seldom see them on the line anymore for many reasons, including the main one, most people shoot higher scores with their 45.

is that because of an inherent accuracy difference or because shooting 2 legs with one gun makes it easier to become proficient with that gun?

Inquiring minds want to know ...

Roger

[Isabel1130]

Isabel:

With apologies to the OP for the hijack, but when you wrote:

You seldom see them on the line anymore for many reasons, including the main one, most people shoot higher scores with their 45.

is that because of an inherent accuracy difference or because shooting 2 legs with one gun makes it easier to become proficient with that gun?

Inquiring minds want to know ...

Roger

Roger, there are many reasons but let's start with the history of bullseye. Why was the 38 the original choice for Center fire? Because back when bullseye started revolvers were mostly what you saw on the line. When bullseye went to semi autos, the 38 wadcutter round, out of a semi auto had only one advantage over a 45 wadcutter gun, and that one advantage was a 2.5 pound trigger pull. A full wadcutter bullet is shaped like a beer can. It does not have very good aerodynamic properties, and for some reason, is a much less forgiving gun of triggering errors than a 45 is. The 38 wadcutter can also be an alabi machine out of a magazine fed semi auto. You need to reload VERY carefully to get good functioning.
I know Dave Wilson machines barrels that will make a 38 with the right load shoot very well out of a rest, but those results don't translate as well into off hand results for most shooters.
I have shot next to people shooting thirty eights, three times at matches in the last four years. Lots of keyholes, and fliers. Two weeks ago I scored a very fine but elderly master class shooter who shot a 38 auto in Centerfire. This was an indoor match, and he was shooting a model 52 to save his wrist. He shot a 703 in Center fire, and about a hundred points higher in 45. In center fire there were a lot of fliers, and visible misses. that in the 45 match went away.

I have an opinion as to why there are people who shoot great scores in 22 and in Center fire, and then tank in the 45 match. It is because they have poor triggering skills and the 45 exposes these triggering errors. People who have excellent triggering will shoot generally similar scores across all three stages of a 2700.
Some of that is because they use the same platform, and many bump their 22 trigger up to centerfire legal to give the same feel to the gun.
People that do want a center fire gun, have mostly migrated to a 1911 9mm. This gun, with the right barrel, is a tack driver, with a lighter trigger, and a much more stable and better feeding round than a 38 wadcutter. Some of the master class shooters believe that the smaller 9mm holes cost them a few points, but for some reason, don't worry about that in the rim fire match. :-)

[Jerry Keefer]

Lots of keyholes, and fliers. In center fire there were a lot of fliers, and visible misses.
Some of the master class shooters believe that the smaller 9mm holes cost them a few points, but for some reason, don't worry about that in the rim fire match. :-)

Great analogy Isabel !!... I too, advocate the .45 for CF.. and try to discourage sub calibers.
I'd like to comment on the .38 Spl caliber. When properly built, barreled, etc. It is a very accurate caliber. No key holing, or fliers should be present. There is a mechanical failure or ammo abnormality which is creating such a condition. When PPC competition flourished, many of the winning guns could group inch or less at 50 yards.. Stock factory 18 twist barrels are a little too slow.
Jerry

[Isabel1130]

Lots of keyholes, and fliers. In center fire there were a lot of fliers, and visible misses.
Some of the master class shooters believe that the smaller 9mm holes cost them a few points, but for some reason, don't worry about that in the rim fire match. :-)

Great analogy Isabel !!... I too, advocate the .45 for CF.. and try to discourage sub calibers.
I'd like to comment on the .38 Spl caliber. When properly built, barreled, etc. It is a very accurate caliber. No key holing, or fliers should be present. There is a mechanical failure or ammo abnormality which is creating such a condition. When PPC competition flourished, many of the winning guns could group inch or less at 50 yards.. Stock factory 18 twist barrels are a little too slow.
Jerry

I have been told, but not experienced it myself, the 38 wadcutter tends to be much more wind sensitive than 45. Since everyone cares a lot about how they shoot at Camp Perry, this may be of concern. :-)

[Jerry Keefer]

I have been told, but not experienced it myself, the 38 wadcutter tends to be much more wind sensitive than 45. Since everyone cares a lot about how they shoot at Camp Perry, this may be of concern. :-)[/quote]
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Both the 38 and 45 have approx the same barrel time and flight time to the target. Using the 38 sweet spot velocity of 710 fps. So, the amount of time wind/gravity has effect on the projectile is about the same, although the weight and mass of each being different. The S&W 52 was good at short line , but its 50 yard performance suffered from the slow twist barrel.. Feeding the rimmed case was / is always a problem.
I am with ya Isabel.. .45 for CF.... :)
Jerry

[RandomShotz]

So far, I have had very little problem with feeding with the 52 - occasional failure to extract, but that only happened every couple of hundred rounds or so. It also seemed to happen in clusters, so maybe there was some inconsistency in reloading contributing to the problem. I don't have room in my apartment for a bench mounted loader so I use a Lee handloader. I haven't had a problem with failures in a while, so it may be getting more consistent with practice.

Unfortunately, I only have access to a 25 yd range so I have no experience with the long line. I recently acquired a .45 and will start reloading and shooting it once components become available, i.e., once the hoarders finally get sated. Maybe if I ever get a chance to actually shoot a bullseye course I will use the .45 for CF, but the 52 is such a pleasure to shoot I can't see putting that away.

Roger

[Dave C.]

Shoot what you enjoy! It is only a game.
I have shot over 2600 using a 38 for center fire.
If you are not shooting for fun it must be for the big prize money!

[C. Perkins]

Interesting topic.
I am not going to hijack the op's thread.
When I get a little time, I will start a thread called "feeding the model 52"

As some may know I started shooting a M52 and sold my Salyer .45
Yes getting away from 2700's

I really enjoy the M52 and my scores are within 15 points of the .45

Do not give up the .38 just because everyone says to.
At least keep it to shoot once in a while.
You will kick yourself if you get rid of that .38, trust me.

Get a .45 if you are serious about BE.

But an M52 in the right hands and right load can shoot with the .45

Clarence

[oldcaster]

corning ,

Stick with a 45 unless recoil bothers you a lot in timed and rapid. I can now shoot better scores with my 32 but years ago when every short line score was right at 100, shooting the 32 would have been a hinderance because it is not any easier to shoot a 32 at 50 yards than a 45 and the scores will be less because of the size of the bullet hole. With a 32 at 50 yards, you have to know exactly what load to make and use or they can be quite innacurate whereas a 45 is the easiest bullet to make shoot straight that I have ever tried. A 9 mm or a 38 in a 1911 frame is going to have the same recoil as a 45 because the action has to be unlocked and the slide has to go back in either gun. If the 38 you have is a 52, a lot of people claim they are hard to shoot but many others like them a lot. Either way, you need a .45 to shoot in 2700 matches. If you just want to buy one, I would get a Les Baer wad gun and the cheapest place to get it would probably be Champions Choice. There are smiths out there that can make a quality gun and for some the price might be competitive and for others their price is enormous. You will get sales pitches. Recently I had a friends new stock Kimber match in my Ransom rest and was surprised by its accuracy. It was right at 2 1/2 inches for 10 shots at 50 yards and that was just picking a random cast bullet load. Your next choice is whether you want a slide mount scope or frame mount. I think this could be argued until the cows come home but I think which ever you want is fine. I personally would strongly consider a Rock River match gun also if you happen on to one since they are no longer made. -- Bill --

[Hamdenman]

Rock River still has a few wadguns left from when they were making them. I just got one from the factory with the 1.5 accuracy guarantee. They are currently out of the rail/sight combo but expect some in before Perry. About the same price as a Baer. Not many left. I heard about them from a member of a national guard team. May want to call and see what they have left.

[BEA]

Jerry, since the desired velocity is approx 710 fps, then is the solution to go to a 16 twist barrel rather than try to speed the load up to increase the bullet rpm? I wonder how much velocity you would need to stabilize a 148 gr HBWC out of a 18 twist barrel. Does it help any to go to a 148 gr BBWC which has a slightly shorter bearing surface?

[Jerry Keefer]

Jerry, since the desired velocity is approx 710 fps, then is the solution to go to a 16 twist barrel rather than try to speed the load up to increase the bullet rpm? I wonder how much velocity you would need to stabilize a 148 gr HBWC out of a 18 twist barrel. Does it help any to go to a 148 gr BBWC which has a slightly shorter bearing surface?

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We tried shorter some years ago, and could not get them to work well in fast twist barrels. Never tried them in the slower twist..I never experimented with a higher velocity for the 148 HBWC in an 18 twist. A precision crown and Taylor Throat have been reasonably effective on stock S&W revolvers.
With revolvers, one has the luxury of selecting a twist if the rules permit, but that is not the case with autos.. unless one makes their own barrels, you're stuck with slow twist. I have been getting some outstanding groups from 14 twist 1911 .45 barrels. The best groups, I have seen and achieved for 38 HBWC were from 10 or 12 twist barrels. 14 twist will also do a very good job.
Jerry

[Chris]

I have an opinion as to why there are people who shoot great scores in 22 and in Center fire, and then tank in the 45 match. It is because they have poor triggering skills and the 45 exposes these triggering errors. People who have excellent triggering will shoot generally similar scores across all three stages of a 2700.

Isabel,

I seem to fit this profile. I shoot a Pardini for 22 and my 22 scores are between ~865 and 877. For CF and 45 I shoot a 1911 and struggle to break 800. I do not feel like I have an issue with poor triggering but I do feel like I am missing something in the transition. I know I am gun shy at times and regardless of how much dry firing I do I still seem to anticipate the shot at times. In practice I keep most 25yd shots in the black but in a match when the cadence is different my shots do not stay in the black. I do not feel like it is a match pressure just the cadence is different.

Thoughts?

[Isabel1130]

I have an opinion as to why there are people who shoot great scores in 22 and in Center fire, and then tank in the 45 match. It is because they have poor triggering skills and the 45 exposes these triggering errors. People who have excellent triggering will shoot generally similar scores across all three stages of a 2700.

Isabel,

I seem to fit this profile. I shoot a Pardini for 22 and my 22 scores are between ~865 and 877. For CF and 45 I shoot a 1911 and struggle to break 800. I do not feel like I have an issue with poor triggering but I do feel like I am missing something in the transition. I know I am gun shy at times and regardless of how much dry firing I do I still seem to anticipate the shot at times. In practice I keep most 25yd shots in the black but in a match when the cadence is different my shots do not stay in the black. I do not feel like it is a match pressure just the cadence is different.

Thoughts?

Do you have the Pistol Shooters Treasury? My thoughts are that you should read the article by Bill Blankenship on how he developed his triggering skills. You need a smooth quick pull, that does not disturb the dot. It is extremely difficult to identify triggering errors with light crisp trigger.

If you are shooting a Pardini with an anatomical grip, in my opinion, you either need to move to a Pardini 45 with a very similar grip, or go to a 1911 style gun for 22.
I find it difficult to tell if I have the same grip on a gun, when I move from an anatomical to a slab grip, and over gripping the 45 has been the kiss of death for me under match conditions.

Another very good article on triggering is right here on the Pilkington web site. I have found this article very helpful. http://www.pilkguns.com/eh07.htm

I know Ed Hall, and he is an excellent coach, and a very smart man.

One of the keys for me has been training with a roll trigger. Simple concept really, if your shot doesnt break within a second of initiating your trigger pull, you have screwed up your triggering. It is much easier to feel your hesitation on a roll trigger. Bill Blankenship used a home bult pressure gauge, and trained himself to apply continuous building,pressure from zero to five pounds. The gauge had to move smoothly, or he knew he had screwed it up.
Do your triggering practice against a blank wall, so the dot or sight movement against the bull doesnt freeze you finger.
Practicing with turning targets, with a three second exposure, has been of great benefit to me. It teaches you to get your finger moving. My biggest problem right now is also psychologically backing off on the 22 trigger when I know that is the wrong thing to do.

[Chris]

I do not have that book so I ordered it.

I have a long background shooting Free and Air pistol. I think you need to have a good trigger control to shoot those well and I have shot some good score over the years. Because of this I had the idea 3 months ago to get a rink grip for my 45. I know this my go against the old school way of shooting BE but you do what works for you. It came the other day so I have not had lots of time to dry fire and have not made it to the range yet to try some live fire. I am very interested in how I will like the new grip. This weekend I will make it out the range and give it a try.

I feel like I have good trigger control currently since when I dry fire I can hold the dot as still as if I was not moving the trigger regardless if I am aiming at a target or blank wall. I feel like there is something else in my way from getting good scores. I do feel like I need to spend more time getting my muscle memory conditioned to my 45 trigger.

[Isabel1130]

I do not have that book so I ordered it.

I have a long background shooting Free and Air pistol. I think you need to have a good trigger control to shoot those well and I have shot some good score over the years. Because of this I had the idea 3 months ago to get a rink grip for my 45. I know this my go against the old school way of shooting BE but you do what works for you. It came the other day so I have not had lots of time to dry fire and have not made it to the range yet to try some live fire. I am very interested in how I will like the new grip. This weekend I will make it out the range and give it a try.

I feel like I have good trigger control currently since when I dry fire I can hold the dot as still as if I was not moving the trigger regardless if I am aiming at a target or blank wall. I feel like there is something else in my way from getting good scores. I do feel like I need to spend more time getting my muscle memory conditioned to my 45 trigger.

Brian Zins likes to say that air and free are "all hold" as he does not believe that triggering skills are required to shoot those events well. Bullseye is more like rapid fire, and if you are not triggering quickly and agressively enough it will really hurt your scores. Daryl Szarenski, and Keith Sanderson, and Nick Mowrer all showed up to shoot a 2700 last fall that I was at. Daryl and Nick both shoot 22 slow fire very well. (no shock there) They shoot sustained fire less well, and sustained fire with the 45 even less well. Keith Sanderson who was a bullseye shooter before he took up international rapid fire cleaned everyone's clock with a 2634. He shot everything well.
You cannot get away with passive triggering with the 45. It is that simple. Since you know all these Olympic shooters have a great hold, what else, other than experience do you think keeps them from a high master ? Recoil is certainly a factor in sustained fire, but what recoil mostly costs you, is time. If you are massaging a 3.5 pound trigger timidly until it finally goes "bang" rapid fire goes to crap, as ten seconds just isnt long enough. Heck, when I get into that timid mode, I have had skidders in timed fire. :-)

There is a lot of good info in the Pistol shooters treasury. Everytime I read it, I learn something new, mostly because I have reached the point where my understanding of my shot process has increased enough so that information that was obscure before, now has meaning. Let me know what you think of the book.

[jackh]

My mistakes in rapid are mostly from relaxing grip or hold somehow during the string. If the hold is not maintained through the string, all sorts of errors cascade from it.

[schatzperson]

Hope the OP doesnt mind a bit more hi-jack, but this threads diversions have intriguing detail.
Isabel, when you say that the 45 exposes triggering errors, you are referring to the 3.5 Lbs, yes ? I ask this because "45" often means 1911 platform de facto.
I tend to agree with your statement. However, is it possible that the 1911 design magnifies these errors to some degree?
I know the 1911 is so popular and diffuse and really dont mean to denigrate it in any way, but the left side of my brain makes me ask questions.
So called "forgiveness" of bad triggering might sound like black magic, but it is not; Its just a collection of brief, imperceptible vectorial forces that take place as the the trigger breaks and all the tiny movements imparted while the bullet is still in the gun.
This is very difficult to quantify ( just think of the many contributing factors, geometry, balance, pivotal resultants of triggering action and frame itself in recoil etc etc).
Seems to me however that its pretty well established that a "higher" rake and low bore, commonly seen as contributing to just lesser recoil rise, more importantly, assist "forgivness".
I know that the 1911 has served well and I have respect for its practicality; But I cant help wondering if its widespread popularity is sometimes self defeating, if it dismisses away objective dissent so cleanly.

Anyway, I apologise for the rant, now back to earth.
A 45 slug might also have a stability advantage over a longer 38, since it has more peripheral mass for a given twist rate and speed. This should translate into better centrifugal stability over the 38.