Yet another "Which pistol?" thread

[BenEnglishTX]

I apologize in advance for again asking you to walk this well-trodden path. However, believe it or not, I've used the search function and found nothing specifically on point.

I'm looking for a .22 to start shooting Conventional Pistol.

I prefer -

1. 1911-style ergonomics,
2. A red-dot sight (most likely an H1),
3. A "roll" trigger, and
4. Reasonable availability, i.e. I can pay money now and get the pistol within a month.

I thought this was a fairly simple set of requirements but it appears I'm wrong.

I've handled or shot several .22s built on full-size 1911 frames. The Sig 1911-22 seemed OK but the salesman (who I know and trust) advised against it saying that the steel slide stop would eventually eat the notch on the aluminum slide. The Browning 1911-22 is cute enough to buy on general principle but it's not full-sized. The "Colt Gold Cup" in .22LR is an abomination. It's built by Walther, imported by Umarex, and a Colt only in the sense that someone paid some royalty money so they could engrave "Colt Gold Cup" on the slide. My first impression was so negative (so loose it rattled, ridiculously poor finish, just felt like a toy for a child) I didn't even bother test-firing it. (Of course, if someone on here with relevant experience tells me it's a wonderful option, I'll go back and have another look.)

As for pistols I've not handled, I've talked to the Nighthawk folks and their .22 sure seems like exactly what I want. Unfortunately, delivery time will be well into next year, they had never even heard the term "roll trigger", and they said there was no way to mount a dot sight on their pistol.

I suppose I could get an AW93 and do what Zins did - lose the palm shelf, re-shape the grip so that it's like a 1911, and experiment with the myriad trigger adjustments until it has the equivalent of a roll trigger. That option is both expensive and relies on me to get the trigger right, something that's not a good bet. In my experience, if it's mechanical I'll either use it as it comes to me or I'll break it.

I also realize that I can give up on the 1911-style trigger that rolls straight to the rear and accept a crisp trigger that pivots. If I do that, there are any number of places I can simply send a check. Oregon Precision and Clark both stock .22s built on Ruger 22/45 frames that would work fine. But that's not the style of trigger I want.

Does anyone make what I'm looking for as a standard item, ready to send out upon receipt of an order? Or must I just shoot something else (I have a couple of suitable Rugers) while I wait an idiotically long time to get a pistol made by a custom bullseye pistolsmith?

TIA for your thoughts,

Ben

[Isabel1130]

My opinion, buy a Mavel conversion unit. Get a 1911 frame, and then get a gunsmith who can do a roll trigger to do a trigger job on it. The marvel conversion unit will come with a rail that you will have no trouble attaching the base of an H1 too. There are a few in Texas who can do this, and I know others who can do it fairly quickly. The AW comes with an awsome trigger. Not that tough to adjust. If you decide on that, we can talk about your options, CMM makes a grip adapter that turns it into a 1911 grip.

[C. Perkins]

Ben;

Your four requirements mirror image a 1911 made to order.
I will second Kates suggestion of a Marvel unit #1

Clarence

[trulyapostolic]

Completely agree with the previous responses. If you really want a Nighthawk then buy one off of Gunbroker there's some up there now.

[GunRunner]

The gun you want to buy does not exist in the marketplace. And the ones that are close have less than desired accuracy. Like the guys before have said, buy a marvel conversion and get a 1911 lower built, this will give you a gun that if you have the talent could take you as far in the sport that can be achieved

[Old Shooter]

Various members of my pistol team have 2-3 of each of the three Marvel Designs. Having witnessed some of the version 1 & 2 draw backs. The one I chose to use is the Nighthawk Tactical .22 Conversion for the 1911, that is the latest and the greatest by Bob Marvel...

http://www.nighthawktactical.com/22-con ... units.html

I started off using mine on my backup CMP Hardball Gun (a Colt series 70), as I didn't want to go through the process of regularly disassembling my Les Baer 1911 CMP Service Pistol...my primary match gun

I soon found that this was not acceptable since hurried installation regularly resulted in feeding and ejection issues....this was cured by carefully installing the .22 top end as you checked for both smooth alignment and a perfectly free slide...this isn't that hard but I was trying to do it on the shooting line after I had practiced with my "practice" HardBall gun....don't do that...

For me the solution was to order a standard Caspian frame with a checkered front strap that perfectly matches the feel of my Les Baer....

I also installed a matching trigger and main spring housing...and I had my local gunsmith set the trigger up at 4.25lbs and make the take up and over travel also match the Les Baer...

Problem solved...much cheaper .22 Hardball Practice and it is as reliable as my S&W 41...which is basically flawless....

If you will take a moment and look at the link, you will see that the new marvel is very close to having a S&W 41 slide and 1911 matching barrel mounted on a 1911 frame....

I hope this helps...

This model is extrodinarily accurate and I believe it is superior to the previous two models as it solves several issues, including locking back the slide after the last magazine feed round is fired...

One last thing...I was not satisfied with the magazines Nighthawk sends with conversion unit....they are some type of polymer and are too light to drop out of the lower unit easily....what I have turned to instead are the GSG Magazines made in Germany... They are a beefy metal and give a very positive feel when they are inserted and dropped out...the price is about the same as the nighthawk unit.

Hope this helps

I just reread both your original posting and my response...and now realizing that you might not be interested in CMP Hardball practice, please be aware that you can set up the trigger however you like...

Dan

[Isabel1130]

Just a comment on the magazine issue. "Most" of us have had better luck with the GSG magazines than the ones supplied with any Marvel.
You need to slingshot the slide to load the gun, and you should be problem free.
I am sure the nighthawk is a fine conversion unit however it appears that both availability and the issue of how to mount a red dot, are two problems that Ben did not want to deal with.
I like the dedicated Caspian frame. I have a Caspian frame on both my Marvel precision units. I am unsure what "issues" that Oldshooter is talking about. My marvel precision units have had fewer problems than my AW-93's and shoot just as well at half the price.

[BenEnglishTX]

My marvel precision units have had fewer problems than my AW-93's and shoot just as well at half the price.

Could you expand on that a bit?

I've spent the last few days borrowing and renting 1911s with long, medium, and short triggers; and flat and arched mainspring housings in an attempt to determine what I like best. This will be my first 1911-pattern pistol.

I had dismissed the AW93 as requiring too much fussing to get 1911-style ergonomics until you pointed me to the CMM accessories. I thought the CMM 1911 grip frame and trigger combo for the AW93 looked like a reasonable option and I'm strongly considering going that route.

However, then you mention having more problems with the AW93 and that it costs twice as much.

Money isn't an issue here but "problems" are. I have this bad relationship with mechanical devices of all sorts. If they can break then, in my hands, they will.

So what problems, in your experience, should I expect with each of these platforms - the AW93 (with or without CMM grip frame and trigger) vs. a properly done 1911 with a dedicated Marvel top end?

[Isabel1130]

There are many pieces in the trigger, amd the screws are a weak point. You can adjust the trigger yourself if you are slow and careful, but it is easy to mess it up and break one of the screws. It is also very easy if you get too picky in your adjustment to push the gun into doubling.
The other problem is the scope mounting issue. I prefer it in front of the chamber and in my opinion, the BME mount adds too much weight to the muzzle end of the gun. I like to use the gun for international and shoot with irons, and switching those out with the micro mounted in the slot for the rear sight is a pain in the ass.
I also had to replace the ejector on my original gun. It was dragging on the slide and causing alabis. It is also a very tightly chambered gun and likes Lapua ammo.

[Isabel1130]

Ben, if you want to pick the correct trigger you need to figure out which trigger allows you to use the Zins grip and place the middle of the first joint of your trigger finger in the middle of the trigger, reliably repeatably, and comfortably. You are always better off shorter, than stretching because the trigger is too long.
The arched or flat mainspring housing is pretty much what ever you get used to. I do know a high master shooter who switched from a flat to an arched because he discovered that it conformed to his hand better and made it easier to establish a consistent grip. I use an arched mainspring housing also because that is what my first used gun came with, and I got used to it. I think that it helps me shoot my LEG gun better because the back of the Beretta has a serious arch.

[BenEnglishTX]

...the screws are a weak point. ... it is easy to mess it up and break one of the screws. ...

Highly useful information for a guy like me who breaks pretty much everything I lay my mitts on. It looks like a 1911 lower dedicated to a Marvel upper is the way I'll go.

With that path decided on, I now need to decide which frame and which .22 conversion unit.

I'll start with frames. Caspian has been mentioned twice. I've read a whole bunch of threads on this board that also reference Caspian. It seems to be a favorite. Why?

Clark lists on their web site the brands on which they will work: "Colt, Springfield Armory, Caspian, Norinco, Essex, STI, SVI, and Para-Ordnance". So it seems there's more than one suitable brand of frame, despite the fact that Caspian gets mentioned most often around here.

Overall, what makes one frame preferable to another? For this application, for example, all safeties (grip, thumb, and magazine) are completely unnecessary yet I can find no frames that omit those superfluous design features; iow, I find no frames that seem specifically designed for Conventional Pistol shooters. So how do I choose?

Or is this as simple as picking up a Kimber Custom Target II or a Springfield Armory Range Officer, ordering a .22 conversion kit (Nighthawk shows they have them in stock), and putting the parts together myself (perhaps with the notion of later sending it off to a 'smith who can make the trigger right)?

[Isabel1130]

Why Caspian? From what I can tell, it is an issue of quality steel. I am sure other manufactuers are using quality steel, like sti, but when you get into the cheaper guns like Kimber,and Rock Island, you don't know where that steel comes from.
Quality steel is even more important in the trigger parts. Used to be they were all good, from most suppliers. Now it is hit or miss. You get poor steel and incorrect case hardening on trigger parts and neither the roll, nor the trigger weight will hold. You and your gunsmith will find it a very frustrating experience. Ask me how I know this....:-)
One of the most respected gunsmiths told me that he is now getting trigger parts and other custom build supplies from seven different suppliers, because no single supplier, has access to the quality he must have in order to get the trigger jobs to hold.

One other thing about the Caspians, they are slightly wider than other 1911 frames, and people get used to that feel and want to maintain it. Caspian sells their seconds under the Foster brand name. I have a Foster frame on one of my Marvels. Half the price, and I can't tell the difference. Whatever the defect was that made that frame a second, I can't find it.

http://www.fosterind.com/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=53

[plink182]

Caspian frames are desirable because of their quality, consistancy and price. When you order a frame from Caspian they have some of the widest options available to fit your preference. I recently saw someone on Gunbroker selling Caspian lowers pre-built. Not sure of the quality of the trigger parts etc. At Camp Perry you can find the manufacturers Caspian, Marvel and Frerking customer works who had some Marvel specifically built lowers that had incredible roll triggers but were not cheap. I have not bought anything from them and have no personal interest but here is their link: http://fcwguns.com/1911-Pistols
There are other real good gunsmiths out there, this is just one of many I have run across. I have the the Marvel uppers.

[Isabel1130]

Caspian frames are desirable because of their quality, consistancy and price. When you order a frame from Caspian they have some of the widest options available to fit your preference. I recently saw someone on Gunbroker selling Caspian lowers pre-built. Not sure of the quality of the trigger parts etc. At Camp Perry you can find the manufacturers Caspian, Marvel and Frerking customer works who had some Marvel specifically built lowers that had incredible roll triggers but were not cheap. I have not bought anything from them and have no personal interest but here is their link: http://fcwguns.com/1911-Pistols
There are other real good gunsmiths out there, this is just one of many I have run across. I have the the Marvel uppers.

Thank you for that info. I stayed off post this year, and did not get into many of the businesses on commercial row. It is always good to know of another business who supports the sport by producing a quality product and showing up at Camp Perry.

[BenEnglishTX]

...At Camp Perry you can find ... Frerking customer works who had some Marvel specifically built lowers ...

I called, talked to Travis, and was impressed. That was surprising to me, considering that since I've started on this journey to get a proper .22 pistol I've talked to a number of 1911 builders, including as many as I can find in my area, who look at me like I have two heads when I say "roll trigger". Some have attempted to baffle me with BS that it's clear they're making up on the fly. Some have just ended the conversation, strongly hinting that I didn't know what I was talking about and no such thing exists.

While I won't mention names, I've also phoned or emailed several large, semi-custom shops with long histories, big names, big reputations and big prices. I've generally found that they ignore their email and treat the idea of actually returning phone calls with cavalier disregard. When I've managed to get through, I've encountered excessively long lead times and a bit of a "Look, I've got plenty of customers throwing money at me right now and I really don't have time to hand-hold a clueless noob" vibe, both of which tended to put me off.

Wait - I have mentioned one name previously, Nighthawk. Since I've done that, I suppose I should be clear about my dealings with them. They were professional and I got a perfectly acceptable impression of them. I'm not considering them right now simply because the specific pistol I want is not a product they currently catalog, though they did say they would have exactly what I was looking for "sometime after the SHOT Show". In my experience, "sometime after the SHOT Show" is sufficiently imprecise that I'm unwilling to rely on it and I've thus dropped Nighthawk from consideration. I didn't drop them because of any apparent problems with business processes, communications, or product quality. (See? Long explanations like this are the reason I have no desire to explain my reasons for eliminating specific vendors. Sorry for the lengthy side comment.)

I have more research to do, obviously, but thank you, Plink182, for the first lead I've gotten that seems productive.

If anybody has any experience with Frerking Custom Works, I'd sure appreciate you chiming in.

For that matter, if anyone is willing to recommend a shop that:

• - can build a pistol meeting the description I laid out in my first post in this thread, sourcing all parts with nothing from me,
  - can turn around the work in a reasonable time (more than six months is unreasonable), and
  - is not in the top tier of the "paying for the name club" (sorry if that sounds harsh but I've been rather underwhelmed by some of these outfits recently),

then I'd love to hear those names.

[plink182]

I forgot to mention KC Crawford, awesome trigger man. http://kcskustomcreations.com/

[CR10X]

Sir: I've read your thread and I think I understand you desires. However, based on certain comments you have, I can think of several reasons, including experience, that you are having difficulty. It may be just communications, or experience, or misconceptions or whatever. Anyway, please don't take any of this the wrong way, I'm just trying to help.

Based on the following:

I also realize that I can give up on the 1911-style trigger that rolls straight to the rear and accept a crisp trigger that pivots. If I do that, there are any number of places I can simply send a check. Oregon Precision and Clark both stock .22s built on Ruger 22/45 frames that would work fine. But that's not the style of trigger I want.

You re generally going to get this:

I called, talked to Travis, and was impressed. That was surprising to me, considering that since I've started on this journey to get a proper .22 pistol I've talked to a number of 1911 builders, including as many as I can find in my area, who look at me like I have two heads when I say "roll trigger". Some have attempted to baffle me with BS that it's clear they're making up on the fly. Some have just ended the conversation, strongly hinting that I didn't know what I was talking about and no such thing exists.

For a 1911 style trigger, it will always slide to the rear and not "pivot". There was only one custom pistol smith in the late 70's that would redesign the trigger components for a "pivot" type trigger and was later used create the Colt factory "double action" triggers on the 1911 frame. Para currently produces some pivoting double action triggers on their 1911's.

When bullseye shooters use the term "roll trigger", it generally means that there will be some movement if the trigger (again straight to the rear since the trigger is sliding, not pivoting) before the sear is tripped. This is easily achieved and length of travel before the sear trips is usually dependent on the quality of the components, the sear and hammer hole placements and the skill of the gunsmith. The general problem is that the longer the roll the more chances for "glitches", "hitches" or other ways to describe something that is not completely smooth and has a consistent feel (pressure needed to move).

If you really what a "pivoting trigger, the get someone to build something on a Para frame. If you want a roll trigger, then just say "roll trigger" and "short roll" or "long roll". In any event, the distance of the roll will not be very long in distance, just feel. I will not be anything like a glock, beretta, xd, etc. It should be smooth and consistent movement at the same pressure to trip the sear a the end of the movement.

It is not the "take up" commonly found before the trigger bow / disconnector touches the sear legs. That is not a roll trigger.

At this point I typically tell new bullseye shooters to buy something like a used bullseye gun and put a Marvel on it and spend the next little while getting them in the black. By the way, I looked at the Nighthawk sight and their .22 looks like a Marvel. You should just check and see if a Marvel scope rib will work on their. Or simply order a marvel, find a decent frame and slap a dot on it.


By the way, Frerking had several frame for sale at Perry, just waiting for a conversion to be installed.

Hope this helps. Again, just trying to figure out why you have such a problem.

Cecil Rhodes
(Typing since I can't shoot now)

[CR10X]

deleted

[BenEnglishTX]

Sir: I've read your thread and I think I understand ...

I appreciate your desire to help. I also appreciate that you have helped me, as many people have in the past, understand that what I write and what people read are not always the same thing.

In the future, I'll try to remember to put "tl;dr" lines in any posts that exceed a certain length threshold. I think that will be helpful to everyone.

In any case, it generally appears we both understand and agree about both the generalities and the specifics of this process and these mechanisms.

Thanks, again.

[tenx9]

I think it depends what type of competition is available and what you do most often. If its primarily 25yd slows 1800's, then a walther, pardini, hammerli in .22cal and 32 cal. If your shooting 2700's with 50yd slows then stick with the 1911 .45 with a Marvel conversion for .22 cal. .32 and .38 special guns are fairly tough to get to shoot at 50yds, but not impossilble. If your shooting 15-30 points better in centerfire with the mouse guns, then move in that direction. If not then stick with the .45 the whole way.