Range Commands ... Question

Mass Shooter · Post by **Mass Shooter** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:44 am

Can someone clarify the rules for Range Commands:

Was on the line at a 900 .22 pistol event, there were nearly 40 shooters at the line. The several range helpers indicate to the Range Officer that range is safe and ready for the shooters to advance to the line.

The Range Officer begins the cadence range commands.

1) Shooters to the line
2) This is the Time-Fire Relay, 5 shots in (20) seconds with 5 rounds: Load
3) Is the line ready: ... Nobody raises their hand(s)
4) The line is ready ... after completion of this statement someone yells "Not Ready"
5) The range officer completes the remainder of the commands;
6) Ready on the right ... The individual still yelling "Not Ready"
7) Ready on the left ... The individual still yelling "Not Ready"
8) Ready on the firing line ... The individual does not fire his/ her pistol
9) Buzzer sounds.
10) All shooters fire except individual with issue

Upon completion of the relay, the range officer very politely explains the rules and understanding of the commands; ... stating the following:

Is The Line Ready: ... This is a question and is the time to raise your hand or yell loudly "NOT READY" ... If you are not ready you will gladly be allowed additional time to make yourself ready and once your are all set to yell out "READY"

The Line Is Ready: ... This is a statement and signifies the line is ready for the relay to take place. .. Once this is stated the remainder of the commands are given and the relay begins at the sound of the buzzer (or targets turn inward)

So: ... The question here is should the individual be allowed an alibi or any chance for their 5 missed shots because they indicated NOT READY after the "The Line Is Ready" command was given? ...

Your input is appreciated ...

davekp · Post by **davekp** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:02 am

Why was the shooter not ready?

Mass Shooter · Post by **Mass Shooter** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:35 am

davekp wrote:Why was the shooter not ready?

Don't know, .. he or she was 15 or more lanes down the line from where I was. ... It may have been a new shooter unfamiliar with commands protocol.

Maybe the individual was loading rounds into magazines. ... just a guess

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:50 am

The shooter who was not ready should have stepped back from the firing line and given a re-fire string.

Dr. Jim · Post by **Dr. Jim** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:55 am

In my experience, I would say that the range officer was correct. The shooter is expected to know the rules, and where paper targets are used, is responsible for having the correct target up on his position. Failure to take care of these issues is part of the learning process. If an unready shooter does not make the call until after the "line is ready" the string is started and he or she either rushes to catch up or takes the five shot "learning experience".

Dr. Jim

davidjohngoode · Post by **davidjohngoode** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:15 am

I know it sounds harsh, but I don't see why a detail of nearly 40 shooters who are all ready should have to stand down because one shooter who was given the opportunity to say s/he was not ready at the appropriate time did not do so.

Good news is that s/he will probably never do that again now!

JohnLK · Post by **JohnLK** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:46 am

Wow!
I didn't now this.
From the NRA rule book.

0.11.5 Not Ready - It is the duty of competitors to notify the Range Officer if not ready to fire at the time the
Chief Range Officer asks, "IS THE LINE READY" Should the Chief Range Officer cause firing to proceed, the
competitor concerned will be given an opportunity to fire a score in the earliest possible relay or by time extension.
Failure of competitor to notify the Range Officer "not ready" forfeits the right to fire. (See Rule 10.7).

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:12 am

I was calling the line on a league gallery match. One guy was not ready and said not ready late like the OP example. I continued the calls. But about 5 other guys nearby started saying someone was not ready. Not knowing if all the commotion was about a safety concern, so I did stop the calls and had to investigate. The guys dot had gone out. aaaaargh!

I felt like DQing all those guys for being stupid.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:48 pm

I realize the original question is what the rules say, but following the rules to the letter, especially when you are not at Camp Perry where they have line officers with paddles for about every four tables of shooters, is asking for trouble. It is those line officers job to turn their paddles to green so the caller can see that the line is ready, and start the call.
If you stick to the letter of the rules, when you dont have line officers, and you have inexperienced shooters, all you are going to do is stress people out and piss them off. I wonder how many people quit when they encounter rigid rule nazi callers at local matches?
Lighten up. The shooter should get an alabi, and would at Camp Perry. What if you have a revolver shooter on the line, and they can't load fast enough to keep up with the caller. You going to tell them to leave?

BenEnglishTX · Post by **BenEnglishTX** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:26 pm

Isabel1130 wrote:What if you have a revolver shooter on the line, and they can't load fast enough to keep up with the caller. You going to tell them to leave?

I'm right-handed but at the moment I can't shoot with my right hand due to severe tendonitis. I shot a match yesterday with my left hand. The only reliable, accurate, .22LR handgun I own that isn't equipped with right-hand-only grips is a 4" S&W M-18 revolver. There were several times when I had to make a call on the fly - Do I signal not ready or have faith that I'll get the dadgum thing loaded and my arm extended by the time the targets turn?

I chose to take my chances by remaining silent. On a couple of strings, it was close. Still, I've got a great deal of experience with that revolver and I was confident I could get it done.

I can easily see a nervous beginner fumbling the process and being late with their "not ready" signal. I understand the rule but I think that for the long-term health of the sport (i.e., pissing off newbies does NOT grow any sport) I'd have no objection to granting someone an alibi.

Then again, I've fired a grand total of two Conventional Pistol matches in my life so I certainly am not an authority on anything other than what it's like to be a nervous newbie.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:49 pm

BenEnglishTX wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:What if you have a revolver shooter on the line, and they can't load fast enough to keep up with the caller. You going to tell them to leave?
I'm right-handed but at the moment I can't shoot with my right hand due to severe tendonitis. I shot a match yesterday with my left hand. The only reliable, accurate, .22LR handgun I own that isn't equipped with right-hand-only grips is a 4" S&W M-18 revolver. There were several times when I had to make a call on the fly - Do I signal not ready or have faith that I'll get the dadgum thing loaded and my arm extended by the time the targets turn?

I chose to take my chances by remaining silent. On a couple of strings, it was close. Still, I've got a great deal of experience with that revolver and I was confident I could get it done.

I can easily see a nervous beginner fumbling the process and being late with their "not ready" signal. I understand the rule but I think that for the long-term health of the sport (i.e., pissing off newbies does NOT grow any sport) I'd have no objection to granting someone an alibi.

Then again, I've fired a grand total of two Conventional Pistol matches in my life so I certainly am not an authority on anything other than what it's like to be a nervous newbie.

We all should remember what it is like to be a nervous newbe. If you have forgotten, I recommend going to Perry if you have not been, and the pressure of a national competition will make you feel like a newbe again.

I was extremely fortunate. I shot my first 2700 at the Cherry Creek Gun club in Aurora Colorado in April of 2008. I shot next to a Master class shooter who is probably the kindest man I know, and I scored another master class shooter.
In my opinion it takes about 20 matches for most people to get comfortable with the format, so you can focus on your shooting. Even tougher if you are trying to manage a revolver.

BenEnglishTX · Post by **BenEnglishTX** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:05 pm

Isabel1130 wrote:In my opinion it takes about 20 matches for most people to get comfortable with the format, so you can focus on your shooting.

I commented to someone at a match yesterday that it was going to take a while for me to get accustomed to the idea of going to a 2K fun run with occasional pauses to fire off 10 rounds.

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:12 pm

BenEnglishTX wrote:
Isabel1130 wrote:In my opinion it takes about 20 matches for most people to get comfortable with the format, so you can focus on your shooting.
I commented to someone at a match yesterday that it was going to take a while for me to get accustomed to the idea of going to a 2K fun run with occasional pauses to fire off 10 rounds.

Man, you must shoot with a younger bunch than I do. For us, it is more like the 2k hobble. :-) That is what we love about the indoor season. half the walking. I left my first 2700, tired but very happy.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:15 pm

If you are not ready then put the gun down and step back from the firing line and allow the other shooters who are ready to go ahead and fire so you do not break up their routine.

You then get to shoot an alibi string and hope you do not have an alibi during that string.

As far as revolvers go, just get two speed loaders and load them up after firing a string and before going down range to score targets, just like when everyone else loads their magazines at the same time.

As far as nerves go, yes it takes a few matches to get the hang of things.
I will have been shooting BE for four years this coming October.
Before I shot a match I was the line safety officer for the weekend at the AZ state championships.
This really helped before actually competing.

Clarence

BenEnglishTX · Post by **BenEnglishTX** » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:01 pm

C. Perkins wrote:As far as revolvers go, just get two speed loaders...

What kind? Any will work for my K38, but for a k-frame .22 I haven't found anything. I've tried HKS loaders but they don't insert the cartridges far enough. In fact, they don't come anywhere near close. Lately I've been considering Speed Strips but I can't find them. Maxfire loaders appear to be a good design for this purpose but they aren't made for rimfires.

I'm going to order some Tuff Products Quickstrips and see how they work. I'm not familiar with them and I hope they are just copies of the old Bianchi product. If so, they'll be just what I need.

Anyone with other suggestions, please pipe up.

Mass Shooter · Post by **Mass Shooter** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:55 am

Thank you all for your replies and thoughts and also for the NRA rule statement. ... This is all good information.
As I think deeper, this particular match was outdoors, there were several line helpers with Red/Green indicating paddles and although there was a late indication of "Not Ready" the callers commands moved forward to completion, and everyone shot the TF relay. The caller was very kind as noted before to explain the commands and their meaning. I'm 99.9% certain the shooter was allowed a refire round after the 2nd stage of TF was completed.
As Isabel1130 mentioned the individual perhaps being nervous or whatever the case, the line caller took careful consideration to accomodate the shooter fully understanding the circumstance to keep the shooter(s) happy and not intimidated, but also have gainend him/her some bullseye knowledge, and to come back and do it again. ...

agentr · Post by **agentr** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:02 pm

I shoot revolvers all the time at matches. let the RO know you are shooting a revolver in the match and they will be happy to slow the cadence a bit to accomodate. Often times the RO will watch your position to see that you are at a ready stance befor continuing. If not, walk over and say something. He'll listen! In the case of the original question...if you dont say anything, step back, etc. then you lose those five shots. unless the RO takes pity on you and allows you to refire anyway. I dont see what all the fuss is about. Just open your mouth and say something!

Mark Freedman · Post by **Mark Freedman** » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:51 pm

I am a match director in Southern California. At my match, I certainly would have stopped the string under the conditions stated by the OP. Newbie or not. Revolver, semi-auto, or whatever.

That range officer was wrong. There is nothing in the rules that says the 'not ready reporting period' ends by the next command. He could have called out earlier, but not been heard. There could be a safety issue that he can see, but the range officer couldn't see from his angle (that happened to me once).

Elsewhere in the rules it says the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. That should especially apply to newbies.

Mark

CR10X · Post by **CR10X** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:42 am

The situation is covered here:

10.1.5 Not Ready - It is the duty of competitors to notify the Range Officer if not ready to fire at the time the
Chief Range Officer asks, "IS THE LINE READY" Should the Chief Range Officer cause firing to proceed, the
competitor concerned will be given an opportunity to fire a score in the earliest possible relay or by time extension.
Failure of competitor to notify the Range Officer "not ready" forfeits the right to fire. (See Rule 10.7).

Once the shooter says "Not Ready" and raises his hand or otherwise indicates the condition, he is covered and will get a chance to fire the string. The rule covers what happens if the firing continues, or Range Officer does not immediately hear the announcement and can stop the string.

Just say "Not Ready" and stand by. No need to get more complicated. Any situation will get worked out after the current string is completed.

Cecil "Been Calling the Line Too Long" Rhodes