I don't own an expensive pistol, but I started shooting in a local club Bulls eye league this winter with my Mark III 22/45. I added some rubberized grips, a Ultra Dot, and a Mark II Volquartsen drop in accurizing kit. I went with a Mark II kit in order to eliminate the Mark III magazine safety which greatly complicated the field stripping and assembly process and prevented the magizines from dropping freely. With these modifications in 6 weeks I am shooting in the 530's out of a possible 600, and feel I can do much better. So, I entered the local NRA Sectional Bullseye Match coming up in late February without giving it a second thought. Then I got around to reading the rules and wanted to get the opinion of the experts that reside on this board regarding the last sentence in Paragraph 3.4, "All standard safety features of the gun must operate properly". Is my gun legal for the match after converting the internals to those of a Mark II, which does not include a magizine safety? My take is I did not disable a safety, but converted the internals to an earlier version which does not have one. The manual safety still works as it should. Thank you for your assistance.
Ric
Question - RE: NRA Conventional Pistol Rules
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Rimfire Ric
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:09 am
- Location: SE Virginia
Question - RE: NRA Conventional Pistol Rules
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Ric:
I am not an NRA referee, however based on my observations, reading and discussions with NRA refs, the short answer is, No the gun does not meet the NRA rule requirements. With this modification the gun no longer conforms to the NRA rules based on original manufactured condition with respect to operational safety features. The same thing happens when Series 80's 1911's are changed to remove the firing pin safety, grip safetys that don't engage, S&W Model 41 mag safetys are defeated, etc.
Now, you may get lots of posts saying it doesn't matter, its a stupid rule, who will know, etc. However, when a ref checks the gun, he will expect to work a certain way. Now we all know that most local matches don't have trigger / gun checks and people will say who cares. But the bottom line is - YOU will know.
Cecil
I am not an NRA referee, however based on my observations, reading and discussions with NRA refs, the short answer is, No the gun does not meet the NRA rule requirements. With this modification the gun no longer conforms to the NRA rules based on original manufactured condition with respect to operational safety features. The same thing happens when Series 80's 1911's are changed to remove the firing pin safety, grip safetys that don't engage, S&W Model 41 mag safetys are defeated, etc.
Now, you may get lots of posts saying it doesn't matter, its a stupid rule, who will know, etc. However, when a ref checks the gun, he will expect to work a certain way. Now we all know that most local matches don't have trigger / gun checks and people will say who cares. But the bottom line is - YOU will know.
Cecil
Sorry for the second post. But I noticed you are in SE Virgina. If you are doing the Charlotte match in Feb, I can provide several .22 options for you to choose from to use if needed. If it is another match, I know several VA / NC shooters that can provide loaners if needed.
Also, There will be outdoor bullseye matches March - October at Sir Walter Gun Club range in Creedmoor, NC. Just look up Sir Walter Gun Club and follow the links.
Also, There will be outdoor bullseye matches March - October at Sir Walter Gun Club range in Creedmoor, NC. Just look up Sir Walter Gun Club and follow the links.
You know that there are more modification done on guns than there are stars in the firmament. If there is a referee at the sectional I am quite sure the only thing you will have to worry about is the trigger pull. There are so-o-o- many Rugers with the volkswagen trigger and other modifications, I totally disagree with the above interpretations of the "Rules". No matter how "bad" and/or "good" some of the overly officious NRA refs are, you shouldn't have a problem. If you have a stickler just let him test the trigger pull and don't mention any of the supposed "disqualifying" mods (BS). This is not the ISSF which are the real SS of the shooting world are refs who's eyes are calibrated in mils not millimetres and hands that can weigh to centigrams. Not to worry enjoy your Ruger and it's "modifications" they are non-disqualifying. You can take that to bank......"Doc"
Rule 3.4
I do run a Sectional championship and because we have had records set at our match, and don't want anyone to shoot a record score and wind up with a DQ, our policy is to inspect all pistols at check-in.
Removing a safety device and calling it a "conversion" is a stretch. So let your conscience be your guide, and don't whine if you get busted for a pistol with a disabled safety feature.
If you really believe that your "conversion" is within the rule, write to the Protest Committee and get a ruling in advance.
Removing a safety device and calling it a "conversion" is a stretch. So let your conscience be your guide, and don't whine if you get busted for a pistol with a disabled safety feature.
If you really believe that your "conversion" is within the rule, write to the Protest Committee and get a ruling in advance.
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Steve Yuszka
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- Location: Columbus, Ohio
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Rule Opinion
Your firearm is a Mk. III and should operate like a Mk. III; that is what the rule is attempting to say. If you wanted it to operate like a Mk. II then you must buy a Mk. II. Now, chances of getting caught, slim. Set any kind of record or win a match, your gun will get checked. And you will be DQ'ed if the individual knows the difference between a Mk. II and Mk.III.
.Don't worry about it. I've shot all over the country and have never seen anything like you fear. A trigger weighing is about it
Does this say what it appears to say: match officials won't catch you, so feel free to do it?
The pistol is a Mk III; Mk III's have that safety; yours does not; it is noncompliant. Do what you think is right, and be judged for your choices.
I will say, if I knew the guy next to me had an inoperable safety on his match pistol and won an important match, beating me in the process, I would go up to the podium and congratulate him.
Others may do as they please.
I see NO advantage conferred by his gun. There are enough guys out there really cheating, but they are not "winners."
Others may do as they please.
I see NO advantage conferred by his gun. There are enough guys out there really cheating, but they are not "winners."
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Rimfire Ric
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:09 am
- Location: SE Virginia
To all, I appreciate the replys. I am new to the sport, and was trying to do the right thing. It appears the rule is somewhat subjective and lends itself to interpretation or is generally not followed at all. In retrospeck I wish I had not asked. The Mark III 22/45 is only designated on the barrel and the receiver is not designated nor does it have a serial number. A mark II receiver will slide right on and except for the marking on the barrel you have a mark II. The Safeties are in the receiver. I did not disable a safety, I replaced all the mark III components with a Mark II kit which does not include a safety. That constitutes a conversion to me. Realistically, I have no advantage with this gun over any competion, and that was not my goal for the conversion. My trigger pull is a solid 2.5 Lbs. It was to facilitate breakdown and assembly and to allow the magazines to drop freely without being pulled out (purely for convenience). I would argue that the Hamerlies and Pardini's with their custom grips have a significant advantage over my ruger, and that it is at the bottom of the equipment chain in most matches. I am a senior shooting his first match as "unclassified" which means I'm shooting in the Master class. On a good day, I may shoot in the 540's in a 600 match, and on a bad day, well really bad. I don't think I have to worry about winning anything, and my goal was to have fun, get my first match under my belt and hopefully get a classification (if that is even the case, as I'm not sure). At this stage in life I don't wine about the small stuff as was suggested by someone, and since it isn't life threatening that is where this belongs. If by some remote chance the stars aligned and I should win, I would gladly forego the prize, as I would know I won, and the guy that came in second would know I won.
At this point, I'm not sure what I'll do. I probably won't be able to buy another pistol and reverting to the original components with its 5.5 Lb trigger pull and complexity of the Mag safety would be criminal. Since I actually feel it is a conversion, and it appears no one else would care I'll give it some thought.
Thank you;
Ric
At this point, I'm not sure what I'll do. I probably won't be able to buy another pistol and reverting to the original components with its 5.5 Lb trigger pull and complexity of the Mag safety would be criminal. Since I actually feel it is a conversion, and it appears no one else would care I'll give it some thought.
Thank you;
Ric
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NDbullseye
- Posts: 60
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'All standard safety features of the guns must operate properly' is a standard NRA clause.
While many of the posters are looking at this as relating to gaining an unfair advantage, it probably should viewed as a liability/insurance matter. IF there is an incident, expect the legal advisers to latch on to anything that can get them out of paying out - that's what highly paid legal departments are paid for.
While many of the posters are looking at this as relating to gaining an unfair advantage, it probably should viewed as a liability/insurance matter. IF there is an incident, expect the legal advisers to latch on to anything that can get them out of paying out - that's what highly paid legal departments are paid for.
Ruger Mark III with Volquartsen Kit
I'm curious why you didn't install the Mark III kit.
Last edited by GOVTMODEL on Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
List:
I checked back in and was suprised at the number of posts on this question. Ric asked a simple question, did the removal of a magazine safety violate the rule? The answer is yes, without a doubt. We can do many modifications, conversions, additions, subtractions, etc to the guns, but we are guided by the rules provided for the NRA Approved and Registered matches. (So the 2 pound trigger rule makes no difference either, barrel length, sight radius, competiing in Marksman class even if you are a Master, etc? Where, dear reader, do we draw the line?)
I find it considerably disturbuing that people participating in this sport would even suggest that just because it may make no difference, a rule should be ignored. One of the reasons that there is not a lot of pistol inspection, checking, trigger weighing, etc. is that we generally expect competitors to be true sportsmen (and sportswomen).
On the other hand, we all really want Ric to be able to shoot. That is where all the other questions, comments and even my offer for loaners comes in. I can tell you as a match director I have had to make the call in the past. It's not fun, but then again, I had room and was able to allow the competitor to continue shooting, but not for record. At other matches, the same thing could happen, or the shooter might be asked to clear from the line if they do not have a conforming pistol.
Ric, you asked a question. The answer is not ambigious or unclear from a simple reading of the rules. Per my post, and true to my prediction, you got lots of responses that exponded on why it did not matter, no one would know, I've never seen it checked, whatever. You appear to be off to good start and congratulations on picking up the sport. I will say that you do not need to completely disassemble a Ruger to clean it well, and that mag safety should not be an issue from that respect. By even asking the question, I will assume you were looking for the anwer, not a justification. Byt the way, only the removal of the mag safety is the problem. No matter what other stuff is posted or implied by other posters, just because you have differ trigger, sear, etc. does not cause a problem. Just the removal or disabling of a safety device.
If a ref picks up a Mark III for pistol weighing and it goes off without the magazine insterted, he will know something is not right. Same as they notice with a Model 41. Been there, seen it, watched the guy box his stuff, no t-shirt awarded.
Good luck and good shooting to you all.
Cecil Rhodes
"Still trying to learn how to think about shooting a good shot."
I checked back in and was suprised at the number of posts on this question. Ric asked a simple question, did the removal of a magazine safety violate the rule? The answer is yes, without a doubt. We can do many modifications, conversions, additions, subtractions, etc to the guns, but we are guided by the rules provided for the NRA Approved and Registered matches. (So the 2 pound trigger rule makes no difference either, barrel length, sight radius, competiing in Marksman class even if you are a Master, etc? Where, dear reader, do we draw the line?)
I find it considerably disturbuing that people participating in this sport would even suggest that just because it may make no difference, a rule should be ignored. One of the reasons that there is not a lot of pistol inspection, checking, trigger weighing, etc. is that we generally expect competitors to be true sportsmen (and sportswomen).
On the other hand, we all really want Ric to be able to shoot. That is where all the other questions, comments and even my offer for loaners comes in. I can tell you as a match director I have had to make the call in the past. It's not fun, but then again, I had room and was able to allow the competitor to continue shooting, but not for record. At other matches, the same thing could happen, or the shooter might be asked to clear from the line if they do not have a conforming pistol.
Ric, you asked a question. The answer is not ambigious or unclear from a simple reading of the rules. Per my post, and true to my prediction, you got lots of responses that exponded on why it did not matter, no one would know, I've never seen it checked, whatever. You appear to be off to good start and congratulations on picking up the sport. I will say that you do not need to completely disassemble a Ruger to clean it well, and that mag safety should not be an issue from that respect. By even asking the question, I will assume you were looking for the anwer, not a justification. Byt the way, only the removal of the mag safety is the problem. No matter what other stuff is posted or implied by other posters, just because you have differ trigger, sear, etc. does not cause a problem. Just the removal or disabling of a safety device.
If a ref picks up a Mark III for pistol weighing and it goes off without the magazine insterted, he will know something is not right. Same as they notice with a Model 41. Been there, seen it, watched the guy box his stuff, no t-shirt awarded.
Good luck and good shooting to you all.
Cecil Rhodes
"Still trying to learn how to think about shooting a good shot."
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Rimfire Ric
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:09 am
- Location: SE Virginia
Re: Ruger Mark III with Volquartsen Kit
Since you asked. I did not know about this rule at the time. The Mag safety requiring a magazine to be inserted to pull the trigger greatly complicates the field stripping and assembly of the pistol. It also prevents magazines from falling out when released and requires they be pulled out. I just didn't like the way the pistol had to function with the mag safety. My research showed that Mark II components would work and the Magizine safety issue would be eliminated so that is why I went the Mark II route. Apparently a lot of people do, as there are video's on youtube about how to do it. I wonder how many are shooting bullseye? Only after making the mod did I learn of the Section match and sent in my registration, not thinking anything of it, or that I may have an issue. I then later was reading the rule book and saw the rule that prompted my question. I can see if you have a safety on a gun that it should be required to be in working order. But if no trace of it is there, IMO it should be a non issue. There are a lot of guns being made without magizine safeties, just like all the mark I's and II's that are being shot in Bullseye. This is a stumbling block, and set back to my Bullseye shooting, but even so, I cannot bring myself to re-install the magizine safety.GOVTMODEL wrote:I'm curious why you didn't install the Mark III kit.
No, EIC matches are generally held in conjuction with Regional or State matches. There will be at least 2 EIC matches in NC, April and September at the North State Shooting Club (check website) which shoots at Camp Butner.
In addition, the CMP may again have a separate EIC match in conjuction with the Eastern Regional. This match typically uses the CMP format like Camp Perry. A novice type match where beginners (with no distinguished points) can get up to 4 points. I believe they they also had a standard EIC match format (10, 8 6 points) for the non-novice shooters. The CMP also had a gun as prize last year. This was also held at Camp Butner and the North State Shooting Club website may have info on what is planned for this year.
Cecil
In addition, the CMP may again have a separate EIC match in conjuction with the Eastern Regional. This match typically uses the CMP format like Camp Perry. A novice type match where beginners (with no distinguished points) can get up to 4 points. I believe they they also had a standard EIC match format (10, 8 6 points) for the non-novice shooters. The CMP also had a gun as prize last year. This was also held at Camp Butner and the North State Shooting Club website may have info on what is planned for this year.
Cecil
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ghillieman
- Posts: 253
- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Mineola, TX
Hey Rimfire Ric,
Been there done that. I modified an M-1 Garand sight for the State CMP Championship only to find out that I read the wrong set of rules for that match. Luckily I had enough time to buy a new front sight, with a manufacturer that produced the thinnest blade ;), and get it installed before the match. Glad I did, I shot second place that year.
Anyways, it happens, just keep in mind that there is a remote chance that you could be dq for it. Probably at the most inoppotune times at expensive state or regional matches.
You should come and check out our monthly rimfire BE match at www.rimfirecentral.com , scroll down to the bottom and click on Pistol matches. The last few months weve been shooting NMC's, come check it out. Good luck, hope to see you there!
Been there done that. I modified an M-1 Garand sight for the State CMP Championship only to find out that I read the wrong set of rules for that match. Luckily I had enough time to buy a new front sight, with a manufacturer that produced the thinnest blade ;), and get it installed before the match. Glad I did, I shot second place that year.
Anyways, it happens, just keep in mind that there is a remote chance that you could be dq for it. Probably at the most inoppotune times at expensive state or regional matches.
You should come and check out our monthly rimfire BE match at www.rimfirecentral.com , scroll down to the bottom and click on Pistol matches. The last few months weve been shooting NMC's, come check it out. Good luck, hope to see you there!