SSP air pistols

pauln · Post by **pauln** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:09 pm

It seems to me there would be a good market for a quality new SSP air pistol?
No disrespect to the IZH46 that i have used and admire, but find rather front heavy and in need of a lot of work on grips . I feel a lot of people are like me , they don't necessarily want to compete formally , but enjoy the challenge of competing against them selves in there own home environment . The SSP is ideal for this when the shooter doesn't want the expense etc of dive tanks . Bring back the FWB 103 and the like, I'm sure there would be a market . Or am I totally wrong ?

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:26 pm

The problem is they probably cost more to make than a PCP.

So, would you be prepared to pay more?

Also, some juniors etc find the difficult to load.

Having said that, I'm surprised that there hasn't been something like this come out of China.

pauln · Post by **pauln** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:48 pm

Cost would be a factor, IZH seem to be able to produce a reliable system for minimal cost . Just need something with better balance less weight and more adjustment in grip area. Maybe aiming a bit high with the FWB 103 but surely something a step up from the IZH 46 would be viable. Come on China lol.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:10 pm

Many of you know that I have pushed for SSPs here, and I'd like to think there is a market for them.

The IZH46M have really sold well. I suspect it is because there is no direct competition at its low price. It is a decent, albeit somewhat agricultural implement.

The high end guns are probably no more expensive (or cheaper) to build than other models. They were discontinued because they didn't sell well enough to continue their manufacture.

I've been shooting my FWB 100 for several days, delighting in its smooth, accurate shot delivery. This morning I picked up my well tweaked LP1 and was surprised at the (relative) violence of its discharge.

I shoot about the same with both guns, but I like the smooth no jump shot of the FWB at over 500fps. Muzzle brakes are vastly over-rated.

As much as I like the FWB, I would have to recomment the Pardini K58 to those looking for an SSP for its more modern ergonomic design and its lower price. The lower sight line, excellent trigger, and better grips on the K58 put it to the top of the heap of SSPs.

I have no specific experience with the Walther LPM1, but my familiarity with other Walthers tells me it has to be near the top. It's just scarce and hard to find.

The only complaint I hear about SSPs it that people are exhausted cocking them over the course of a match. Let's get real here! Unless you are a child or suffering some physical disability, that's some lame bullshit someone once posted on the web and has become gospel.

I'd be happier with more suitable grips on my FWB (yes I'm looking; got some?), but I'm at absolutely no disadvantage against ANY gun out there.

Let the flames begin...

kevinweiho · Post by **kevinweiho** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:59 pm

j-team wrote:

Having said that, I'm surprised that there hasn't been something like this come out of China.

Well, the Beeman P17 SSP airpistol is a fine example of what came out of China, but the only downside are the cheap seals used in the gun.

If China was to produce a clone of the FWB 103, they will not sell for a cheap price because alot of precision components are needed to manufacture the pistol.

Rover wrote:

I'd be happier with more suitable grips on my FWB (yes I'm looking; got some?), but I'm at absolutely no disadvantage against ANY gun out there.

If the FWB 65 or the SSP pistols are so good, why isn't anybody using them in the World Cup or Olympics?

If you are shooting in a controlled, unstressful situation, then there is no disadvantage.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:04 am

Sponsorship and related increased sales are important, so that would be one obvious motivator in pushing the much more expensive, newer pistols. FWB isn't selling the 65 any more so it makes sense not to promote it, financially anyway. Look back to the MkI 65, as it was called some places. No problem with it. Near-perfect accuracy, easy to use, set records and all... but someone shot a better score with the barrel chopped off a bit so they re-marketed basically the same pistol with a shorter barrel and different sights and kept the model afloat for some more years.

These days we have several sorts of barrel porting, electronic triggers, colourfully anodized cylinders, whatever gizmo they can think of to freshen up the marketability of the pistols. New is better in the popular mindset. Almost no one wants to join a sport where a 30 year old tool is state of the art, as it seems stale and a lot less hip than carbon fibre barrel housings and other exotic flourishes.

I'm only in my first year shooting AP, so a rank beginner, but my 46m after some significant modifications is more than adequate for my needs. I've reached a level where I can see my results aren't as good as they can be with better training and focus, that I can shoot a 10 easily when in the right frame of mind on the first shot of the day but the difficulty comes in the mental game after that shot. My 46m is not the thing which lets me down, and from some of my groups of 10 or more shots it's plain enough that it won't be letting me down for a good many years. So I'm happy to use it and don't have the slightest inclination towards buying any scuba-fed pistol. A K58 might be nice... but only if I can keep my Izzy, as it's just too nicely tweaked to let it go now.

I'd love to see more SSPs come onto the market. Perhaps not from the Chinese makers, but from the established companies. But what would motivate them to design and build and market such pistols? Surely not the buying public, who generally perceive point and click as about enough effort without the cocking lever to complicate things. I've not yet found the lever tiring until I'm well over 100 shots in a session, but some people might find it bothersome. Basically I'm not holding my breath for a new SSP from any of the big names at this point. The sales of new cylinders alone every 10 years or whatever is reason enough for them to keep on the same path, with those things selling for hundreds of dollars each. Sell an SSP and what after-market sales are there to be made?

peterz · Post by **peterz** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:29 am

Rover wrote:

The only complaint I hear about SSPs it that people are exhausted cocking them over the course of a match. Let's get real here! Unless you are a child or suffering some physical disability, that's some lame bullshit someone once posted on the web

Ignoring the snide tone, it's a fact that some of us do have "some physical disability." Or have merely grown older -- a condition to which all may aspire. In any event, it's harder for me to shoot 60 rounds with a pcp than it used to be, and completely impossible with my custom-gripped IZH-46M on which I worked so hard. So pass me the pcp KoolAid. Without it, I would have to quit shooting.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:05 pm

Rover wrote:The only complaint I hear about SSPs it that people are exhausted cocking them over the course of a match. Let's get real here! Unless you are a child or suffering some physical disability, that's some lame bullshit someone once posted on the web and has become gospel.

So when exactly did it become bad news to make things as easy as possible when shooting.

Still, I suppose there are some people who would enjoy putting their tin of pellets in a really inconvenient place while shooting. Yes you can still shoot a match; but it's so much easier if you put them in a convenient place.

Yes you can shoot a match with the extra effort needed to use an SSP; but why an earth would you want to if there is an easier alternative.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:24 pm

David Levene wrote:Yes you can shoot a match with the extra effort needed to use an SSP; but why an earth would you want to if there is an easier alternative.

For me, it's the obvious simplicity. Tanks and hoses and pumps and filters and cylinder lifespans and gauges to check, all that is great if it doesn't bother you. Bothers me. I don't want any extra bits if they're not necessary. A simple lever to move and a tin of pellets makes for a satisfying shooting experience for me, but I'd not dare to suggest that the same should suit everyone.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:55 pm

Gerard wrote:
David Levene wrote:Yes you can shoot a match with the extra effort needed to use an SSP; but why an earth would you want to if there is an easier alternative.
For me, it's the obvious simplicity. Tanks and hoses and pumps and filters and cylinder lifespans and gauges to check, all that is great if it doesn't bother you.

I too like simplicity, during the match. A little bit more work between matches is worth it if it makes the match easier.

I suppose I've just made an arguement for dry-firing; might try it sometime ;-)

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:10 pm

I've heard that some people actually enjoy dry fire training. Wish I were one of those. Last night I felt like shooting, but it was past 11:30 and my family was asleep and the popping noise would have awakened them... so I forced myself to dry fire for about 30 shots. Torture. I see the point. Again last night I found that there was much less tendency to bring tension to the trigger actuation when not attempting to score nice middle hole in the paper. But there seems something almost perverse about dry fire, like it's missing the point of shooting. Not satisfying I guess. A male thing? I wonder if female shooters are similarly reluctant to train this way? Or am I getting too Freudian?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:17 pm

PeterZ,

I thought this was really plain, why would it offend you?

"Unless you are a child or suffering some physical disability, that's some lame bullshit someone once posted on the web and has become gospel."

Shoot a PCP and we'll both be happy.

David M · Post by **David M** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:59 pm

In top competition the pump guns lost favour some time ago when the match time was reduced.
The recovery time for the muscles after pumping to shot production was not there, and the quality of your fine motor control degraded.
It is easier to hold the higher level of control for the match with a gas gun.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:10 pm

Again speaking only of my experience with the 46m... but I don't actually use my shooting arm in a muscularly significant way when cocking the lever. I used to, when I was shooting strictly at home and was using a symmetrical action with the pistol in front of my chest, but on going to a club found that of course this would point the barrel back towards other people, so not acceptable. By resting the heel of the grip against my right hip (I'm right-handed) with the barrel pointed down-range, it requires only a small lean forwards to push the lever all the way out. Then drawing it in on the 'difficult' stroke my left arm is doing all the work, with my right only holding up the pistol. Not much of a workout, considering the arm is at my side, elbow close to my body, almost completely relaxed. Perhaps some might find difficulty in the slight lean and twist involved in doing it this way. I could probably do it all day without tiring my shooting arm.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:28 pm

Gerard,

It looks like you have a good handle on the whole SSP thing. You seem very observant and I'm in total agreement with you.

You can cock an SSP with NO stress if you just pay a little attention to your method. The real benefit of the SSP is the total simplicity of the process. The other guns are really no better (I've tried them all). Of course, the others are no WORSE!

BTW I enjoyed the hell out of shooting the Canadian Gran Prix when it was held in Vancouver. I also shot a match in Blaine, WA where there were SEVEN (count 'em) National Champions competing in one match. (I didn't win.)

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:45 pm

Gee, I didn't know the GP was ever shot outside Toronto. Right now the scene here seems kind of slow. A few good shooters, but only two events per year and now the fall match seems in doubt due to the health of the guy in charge.

networkguy3 · Post by **networkguy3** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:43 pm

Rover wrote: As much as I like the FWB, I would have to recomment the Pardini K58 to those looking for an SSP for its more modern ergonomic design and its lower price. The lower sight line, excellent trigger, and better grips on the K58 put it to the top of the heap of SSPs.

The problem with the K58 is they are just not to be found by mere mortals. I have looked on Gunbroker, GunsAmerica, and AuctionArms, and none of those sites have had a K58 within their archive history. I have only seen one or two sell here on TargetTalk in the archives, and it has been over a year since any have sold. So while the K58 may b a great pistol, and I'd love to find one to purchase, waiting for one to come onto the market seems futile.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Yeah, the K58 is kind of scarce, but not as scarce as the others. Why don't you put a WTB in the Classifieds here. Also, you can find the FWB100 for a lot less money than the 102 or 103. The performance is equal and I find its simpler design more appealing even if they are kind of large and muzzle heavy. Don't forget the very nice Walther LPM1, probably the rarest but still out there.

Another possibility is to contact Pardini directly and ask if anything can be done. They may have a few laying around or would be willing to make a short run of them. The company is not that big that you can't talk to the boss.

You could try here: http://pardiniguns.com/ (US distributor).

Remember, you only need one.

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:30 am

Can anyone confirm if the FAS 604 in still in production?

OK, I know it's a bit short (in sight radius and velocity) by todays standards. I owed one when I was a junior (a loooong time ago).

The FAS 606 seemed to address the length and velocity problem but disappeared after only a short time in production.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:07 am

I don't know whether they're in stock or not, but D&L Airguns here in BC has had the FAS 604 listed for some time, in both match and sport grip models.

http://www.dlairgun.com/FAS-Air-Pistols.html

Of course even if they have them in stock it may be difficult to buy cross-border, if you're in the US.