Rule question for rifle

[Raymond Odle]

Scenario using USAS rules:
Young beginning shooter in kneeling position has shoes with extremely pointed up turned toes extending over the firing line. No part of the shoe touches the line. Is this legal? It was easy to see that the shoe did not touch.
Pistol has rule 8.6.1.1 which gives a clear answer. I can’t find a similar rule for rifle in neither ISSF nor USAS rules.
I have not found a rule that controls how the rifle shooter sets up with the firing line.
7.5.1.2.1 and 7.5.1.3.1 uses the phrase “firing point surface”. Prone says nothing about the elbow. Yes we know what is implied (I think) but I’m surprised it’s not clearly stated.

For USAS 3P air rifle shooter we have this clearly controlled in the National Standard Three Position Air Rifles: 5.1

The above example does not appear to violate ISSF rule 7.5.1.3.1

What am I missing in the rules?

[jhmartin]

Ray .... interesting question that got me back into the rulebook.

Let me state first of all that my belief is that the "intent" of the firing line is that your feet should be behind it. Remember that in prone & standing, we do indeed allow the body to cross the firing line plane, but only the closest support point has to be behind the line.

So I guess shoes/boots that are "elf-like" may pass that "support point" test .... as you described.

However, not seeing the shoes, it's hard to make the following point .... were they "cowboy boots?"
If so then I would use Rule 7.4.6.3---

Normal street type or light athletic shoes, and shooting shoes not exceeding the following specifications are permitted:

.....thinking here that they would violate dimension "c" (2/3'rds length max)

[jhmartin]

Just checked the errata section of the rules:

6.3.8.4 The firing line must be clearly marked. The range distance must be measured from the target line to the edge of the firing line nearest to the shooter. The use of a board as a firing line is not permitted. The competitor’s foot or, in the prone position the competitior’s elbow may not be placed on or in front of the firing line.

(Underlined section highlighted yellow in the rules)
So the position was indeed illegal.

[randy1952]

Scenario using USAS rules:
Young beginning shooter in kneeling position has shoes with extremely pointed up turned toes extending over the firing line. No part of the shoe touches the line. Is this legal? It was easy to see that the shoe did not touch.
Pistol has rule 8.6.1.1 which gives a clear answer. I can’t find a similar rule for rifle in neither ISSF nor USAS rules.
I have not found a rule that controls how the rifle shooter sets up with the firing line.
7.5.1.2.1 and 7.5.1.3.1 uses the phrase “firing point surface”. Prone says nothing about the elbow. Yes we know what is implied (I think) but I’m surprised it’s not clearly stated.

For USAS 3P air rifle shooter we have this clearly controlled in the National Standard Three Position Air Rifles: 5.1

The above example does not appear to violate ISSF rule 7.5.1.3.1

What am I missing in the rules?

I know there maybe somebody out there who will disagree with me, but my technical answer on the rule is that as long as the shoe is not touching the line they are okay as they are not gaining any support from the shoe at that point. Otherwise, if this was illegal then you would have to rule that the hand and arm, which usually extend over the firing line illegal. However, once that shoe touches the line it is illegal. That is my technical understanding of the rules.

However, my advice would be to train the shooter to just move his feet straight back away from the firing line to avoid any questions. This small adjust shouldn't have any affect on his position or ability to shot. If it does then you have a mental issue to deal with and besides if the range officer perceives you to be illegal he will usually ask you step back anyway and you can waste time by trying to arguing the point, which by itself will not usually help your mental state or you can just step back and do your thing.

[justadude]

This is an interesting hair splitting point. OK contact is behind the firing line but due to contruction of the shoe/boot the front part of the foot hangs over the line without touching it.

So no part of the shooting is touching forward of the firing line, inspite of the fact that with normal shoes it probably would. For this exceptional case I would probably have to let it go because, by the letter of the rulebook it sounds legal.

However, as a coach, I wonder if shoes with such a sole/toe are really helping the shooter. Without pictures I would guess not so a shoe change might recommended. Second, if the shooter sticks with it, I would expect that in time they will shoot with more conventional footwear necessitating moving back a few inches so why not just start now. I would be very surprised if the extra inches are going to affect the resulting score.

My two cents,

'Dude

[Raymond Odle]

My copy of USAS rules are
Edition 2009 (First Printing, 11/2008)
Authorized for use by USA Shooting

6.3.8.4 The firing line must be clearly marked. The range distance must be measured from the target line to the edge of the firing line nearest to the shooter. The use of a board as a firing line is not permitted.

Nothing more is under this rule. I believe this is the same wording under my copy of the new ISSF rules.

Why the discrepancy?

[David Levene]

Nothing more is under this rule. I believe this is the same wording under my copy of the new ISSF rules.

Why the discrepancy?

That rule was amended in the ISSF 2009 Rules 2nd Printing, effective from 01/01/2010.

[Raymond Odle]

Thanks for the help and update. I downloaded the revised ISSF rule.

But, USAS website USAS rules do not have this revised rule. So where does that leave me?

[jhmartin]

But, USAS website USAS rules do not have this revised rule.

Ray .... yes it does. Download the errata section that clarifies the rules as of Feb 3, 2010.

Again, it states:
Quote:
6.3.8.4 The firing line must be clearly marked. The range distance must be measured from the target line to the edge of the firing line nearest to the shooter. The use of a board as a firing line is not permitted. The competitor’s foot or, in the prone position the competitior’s elbow may not be placed on or in front of the firing line.

I added the underlining
So the position was indeed illegal. If the toe of the shoe was over but not touching, it is in front of the line

[Raymond Odle]

I found it. Thanks for getting me straight.

Since it is in digital format I wonder why the main body of the rules where not updated.

[justadude]

Perhaps we can get one of the AMU shooters to weigh in on this.

First, from a coaching standpoint I would instruct this shooter to move back a few inches. Two reasons: first as mentioned before one day this shooter will likely have a more normal pair of shoes so this is just a bad habit that does not likely gain much. Second it eliminates all debate.

Now, for rules interpretation: The word "placed" has usually been interpreted as "placed in contact with the ground" although the "in contact with the ground" part is omitted in the current wording.

This means that equipment and body parts not in contact with the ground can hang as far over the firing line as the shooter can get them. If you would like to see examples of this go to http://www.issf-sports.org pull up pictures and video of the men's 50m prone finals from the last world cup. All of those shooters have their sling forearms hanging well over the firing line. (You have to figure that if the best prone shooters in the world don't know the rules then we are all pretty much up the creek.)

Now getting back to this shooter, this is unorthodox but, as there is no contact with the ground on or in front of the firing line, I will take the stance that this position as described with the elf toe overhang is legal.

This is my take.

'Dude

[David Levene]

Now getting back to this shooter, this is unorthodox but, as there is no contact with the ground on or in front of the firing line, I will take the stance that this position as described with the elf toe overhang is legal.

If any shooter wants to risk all of the hassle at a competition then good for them; I hope they enjoy it.

Remember that if it isn't picked up in a training session then you start along the yellow/green/red card route into appeal territory.

I'll say again, If any shooter wants to risk all of the hassle at a competition then good for them.

It would be much simpler for the shooter to make sure they are clearly in accordance with the rules. The extra couple of inches won't make any significant difference to their score.

[Raymond Odle]

With the revised rule 6.3.8.4, my original question is answered.

I was not this kid's coach. As a RO I have trouble accussing a shooting of an illegal position without being able to back it up in print. After all these years this is the first time I ran across this situation. Toes touching the line, sure.

I am surprised that this rule was not so stated well in the past.
Did previous rules get revised resulting in an oversight that left out this important description of the body postition relating to the firing line?

[Eric U]

Ok, I've got to say that you guys are just picking nits. Seems pretty obvious to me that this junior isn't of a skill level that this makes a bit of difference. If he thinks that an extra 1/2" will get him more points then he isn't going to be in an ISSF competition anytime soon. If his shooting boots are so worn out that he has elf toes, he isn't going to be shooting in an ISSF competition anytime soon. Why his coach is allowing him to tap-dance on the edge of the rules is beyond me. Why take the chance on a rules interpretation? That is what it comes down to...how the range official decided to interpret the rules. Doesn't make a hill of beans difference what all the TargetTalk cybershooters think.

Just my opinion,
Eric U

[Richard H]

Good opinion.

Yes I love watching the people who have to be right at the line, and the ones who attempt to have 500.0000001 gram triggers in pistol.

If some one is coaching this kid, as a coach tell him to back up and not push his luck.