A Question of Philosophy

[peterz]

My AP and AR sights are well-zeroed, firing from sandbags the pellet goes straight through the 10 ring or dot, no problem. The problem is as always me. Sometimes while firing for record (eg postal match or my own record-keeping) I'll find that the group settles down consistently to some spot outside the 10, but I always find that when I deliver a shot that feels exactly right, the pellet hits the 10.

So it's a question of philosophy. I can likely raise my score by changing my sight setting for the rest of the "match", or I can try harder to make every shot exactly perfect (and maybe then I will find out what I was consistently and repeatably doing wrong), but probably wind up with a lower score.

What do really good shooters do? I know, they don't miss the 10, but just suppose.

[David Levene]

What do really good shooters do? I know, they don't miss the 10, but just suppose.

It depends whether it is in a match or in training.

If in training then you should concentrate on delivering a perfectly executed shot every time; the overall score means nothing.

While you should strive for that same concentration during a match, there are no prizes for firing the highest number of perfect shots. The prizes go to those who have the highest score. Adjust your sights to maximise your score on the day.

[visitor]

The late Don Nygord once wrote an article titled something like: So THAT'S Why They Put Adjustments on Those Sights!

He also gave sage advice about changing settings after a misplaced group, not misplaced shots; and not nibbling at sight adjustments - if you determine that you need 4 clicks adjust 4 clicks, not 1 or 2 at a time.

[robf]

While you should strive for that same concentration during a match, there are no prizes for firing the highest number of perfect shots. The prizes go to those who have the highest score. Adjust your sights to maximise your score on the day.

sure... but ;-)... scores come from good process, and results come from good scores, but you have better control over your shooting process than the score (there are uncontrolable variables), and even less so over the result (depends on who turns up on the day!)

if i was working with you, i'd throw the mental stuff out the way and look to why you have a POI shift between the two (which is what i assume you're saying). That could be due to a number of factors and will take some work to find perhaps, but then the problem is at least being worked on, rather than compensated for.

in the depths of competition, you want to rely on your process like a solid foundation... then if that's solid you can make solid judgments as to if you should change something or not... else you're grasping a little... hardly the thing to help with pressure.

depends if you believe chasing a score is the way, or chasing a better shot is the way... in the long run, it's the latter, but it's a hard corner for people to turn and throw away the score & result in the persuit of shooting better.

[David Levene]

While you should strive for that same concentration during a match, there are no prizes for firing the highest number of perfect shots. The prizes go to those who have the highest score. Adjust your sights to maximise your score on the day.

depends if you believe chasing a score is the way, or chasing a better shot is the way... in the long run, it's the latter, but it's a hard corner for people to turn and throw away the score & result in the persuit of shooting better.

I don't see it as a hard decision at all. There is plenty of time for "chasing better shots", in training.

If you don't do everything possible to maximise your score in a match then you might as well have stayed on your home range and trained; it would have been cheaper. You only get one chance in a match. Get the best score your performance on the day will allow or it is gone forever.

In order of preference:-
1) Win a match by shooting well.
2) Win a match whilst not shooting well.
3) Come second in a match, ie LOSE, whilst shooting well.

It's not the taking part that counts; it's the winning.

[robf]

While you should strive for that same concentration during a match, there are no prizes for firing the highest number of perfect shots. The prizes go to those who have the highest score. Adjust your sights to maximise your score on the day.

depends if you believe chasing a score is the way, or chasing a better shot is the way... in the long run, it's the latter, but it's a hard corner for people to turn and throw away the score & result in the persuit of shooting better.

I don't see it as a hard decision at all. There is plenty of time for "chasing better shots", in training.

If you don't do everything possible to maximise your score in a match then you might as well have stayed on your home range and trained; it would have been cheaper. You only get one chance in a match. Get the best score your performance on the day will allow or it is gone forever.

In order of preference:-
1) Win a match by shooting well.
2) Win a match whilst not shooting well.
3) Come second in a match, ie LOSE, whilst shooting well.

It's not the taking part that counts; it's the winning.

It's all about what makes a good score though.

To pick holes ;-)

1) Win a match by shooting well. Doesn't help if you're a club shooter and your in an international event. You can't win.

2) Win a match by not shooting well. No-one else turned up... and next time they might... or if you don't know why you did well, you can't repeat it.

3) Come second and shoot well, good. Were you beaten by someone better, luckier??

Outcome results mean very little to a shooter's development.

Lets say i give you some real bad ammo. How do you judge your shooting independently of that scenario? Is your shooting solely defined by the ammo and kit you use? If it breaks and you come 2nd, are you actually the lesser shooter?

[David Levene]

It's all about what makes a good score though.

To pick holes ;-)

1) Win a match by shooting well. Doesn't help if you're a club shooter and your in an international event. You can't win.

2) Win a match by not shooting well. No-one else turned up... and next time they might... or if you don't know why you did well, you can't repeat it.

3) Come second and shoot well, good. Were you beaten by someone better, luckier??

Outcome results mean very little to a shooter's development.

Lets say i give you some real bad ammo. How do you judge your shooting independently of that scenario? Is your shooting solely defined by the ammo and kit you use? If it breaks and you come 2nd, are you actually the lesser shooter?

You are taking things out of the original context and introducing additional variables.
The OP was about whether to adjust the sights if, for some reason, your group is forming off-centre in a match. IMHO there is no doubt; the purpose of a match is to get the highest score you can.
As my coach always used to say, "ability is permanent, performance is temporary". You cannot perform at your top level every day so why make things worse by accepting a lower score than a few clicks on the sights would otherwise give you.

[robf]

because you don't know if that's the solution... if you don't have a constant problem, how can you make an offset which is a permanent solution.

Your coach is right. That's why you concentrate on a solid ability. Having a fleeting performance increase without getting to the bottom of what provided it doesn't mean your ability has increased. I'd go further and suggest that an erratic performance across shoots could be detrimental over a lower but more consistent performance.

Furthermore, i'd suggest trying some methods to simulate competition. Ideally, if you're looking for a problem that occurs only in compeition, you should either develop some analysis of competition shoots and shoot a lot of them, and/or try and make your training on that specific problem as close to it as you can.

It's not going to be easy to suggest something over a forum that's a quick fix... but i'd recommend looking for a solution rather than a band-aid for the next comp... else there's a chance it could get worse.

[william]

I can't claim the credentials that the debaters here present, but I have to offer an observation. One factor that always differs between practice and matches is lighting. I find that if illumination at the target increases my groups tend to be higher, due I believe to my pupils constricting. If that occurs, I have the choice of trying to hold a bit lower (but how much?) or cranking my sight down a few clicks (easily quantifiable and reversible at any time).

[David Levene]

because you don't know if that's the solution... if you don't have a constant problem, how can you make an offset which is a permanent solution.

Once again I think you are going beyond the original question. "...I'll find that the group settles down consistently to some spot outside the 10...". If you're in a match then use the sights to centralise the group and maximise your score.

Furthermore, i'd suggest trying some methods to simulate competition.

So would I; but if you're in a match and getting a group off-centre then those methods haven't yet had the desired effect. Use the sights to centralise the group and maximise your score.

[robf]

because you don't know if that's the solution... if you don't have a constant problem, how can you make an offset which is a permanent solution.

Once again I think you are going beyond the original question. "...I'll find that the group settles down consistently to some spot outside the 10...". If you're in a match then use the sights to centralise the group and maximise your score.

Furthermore, i'd suggest trying some methods to simulate competition.

So would I; but if you're in a match and getting a group off-centre then those methods haven't yet had the desired effect. Use the sights to centralise the group and maximise your score.

ok, at the risk of talking like the OP isn't in the room ;)

When he says he takes what feels a good shot it's a 10. When it's not, it's somewhere else. So are you suggesting he just takes bad shots?

If illumination is an perceived issue, have you tried different foresight ring diameters?

Dialing off... ok, quick fix that is variable depending on how the OP takes the shot. Finding the problem, permanent fix one hopes...

I'd also look at some proper NPA drills to determine if position is a factor, but i'd also look to the foresight.

Do you know your foresight sizes and rearsight aperture?

[peterz]

Thanks to all of you. Here's the point; I may not have been clear before.

I was asking a philosophical question, more rhetorical than actual, about whether under pressure 'tis better to adjust the sights which you knew were well set, or to try and adjust yourself, which may take more shots.

But there was an underlying specific. I started shooting high-right again whenever I was really trying for score in my training. The error was so consistently made that I was getting nice dime-sized groups in the wrong place! When I sandbagged the gun, I fired nice 10s, but then the gun was pretty immovable. After a lot of debugging, I found that somehow my trigger had been moved closer to the grip than it should be, and I was not pulling straight back. I corrected that, and have now virtually eliminated the jerking to high right. If the grip fitted a little better, that would help.

My front sight is the middle sized of the 3 inserts that FWB supplied with the C-20; the sight is about 2/3 the size of the bull. The rear sight is fairly wide open (haven't measured it); to reduce apparent movement, I've shortened the sight line to the minimum -- so giving you sight sizes might not mean much.

[David Levene]

[When he says he takes what feels a good shot it's a 10. When it's not, it's somewhere else. So are you suggesting he just takes bad shots?

No, I'm suggesting that he accepts the performance on the day. If the group is away from where a perfect shot lands then it's obvious that the perfect shots are in the minority.

Accept the way you are shooting in the match, use the sights to maximise your score, then go away and work on repeating the perfect shots, or developing a good match temperament, in training.

[David Levene]

I started shooting high-right again whenever I was really trying for score in my training.

Why were you trying for a score in training. There will be occassions when you would want to but, in general, training is the time for perfecting your technique and developing your skills. Setting process goals (e.g. "I will release the trigger smoothly and positively for ?% of the shots") in training are much more important than setting score goals.

When I sandbagged the gun, I fired nice 10s, but then the gun was pretty immovable.

Zeroing a pistol from a sandbag has, IMHO, got very little to do with setting the sights correctly. The sights should be set to give you a centralised group from your normal shooting position. Because of varying muscle tension, for example, that correct sight setting can vary from day to day or even during the course of a match.

[lastman]

Philosophy is all well and good... however when you're shooting 9's and 8's it hardly seems worth it.

There seems to be a major underlying issue that you're not mentioning. You are doing something different when you're shooting for a score.

There are so many variables that come into play when you are shooting "for real" rather than training.

Some of which
* Increased hand size, thus affecting grip of pistol .
* Lighting conditions changes the way in which you see the sights. Pupil dilation also has this affect
* Thought processes (as any shooter knows) can have a dramatic affect on group placement.

I could go on forever with all of these little things that change constantly and will affect your group placement just enough to be an issue.

The philosophy of not changing your sights is 1 I know all too well. I have battled this question many, many times.

The conclusion I came to is this. It is almost impossible to deliver every shot in a perfect manner in competition (thus resulting in centre shots.) You need to do everything in your control to minimize the effect of poor shots and maximize returns of good shots.

In short... Move your sights in competition and fix the problems in training.


Good luck

[Spencer]

My AP and AR sights are well-zeroed, firing from sandbags the pellet goes straight through the 10 ring or dot, no problem. ...

Further to David Levene's comment, the difference between sandbag/machine rest group location and off-hand group location is a great tool for an experienced coach, but for self-analysis by the shooter concerned of dubious meaning

[2650 Plus]

The totally positive approavh was the break through for me. I worked diligently to remove all negative influences in my shot sequence.I trained my mind to follow the steps in the sequence so as to avoid the destructive wild thoughts that disrupted my control of shots . This training led me to deliver shots correctly without having to think through each shot when every thing was working perfectly and I had something to fall back on when things were going wrong. My mental drills were designed to achieve sufficient arrousal to eliminate careless shots and to reduce the arrousal when when I got in a position to win the competition and the level of excitement began to interfere with my control of the next shot. This is one great sport. Good Shooting Bil;l Horton