Hi
I hope someone can direct me to the right answer or place to read as I am a new shooter. I am shooting a CM-2 rifle prone at the A23 targets from 50 yards. My hunting club range has an elevation gain of about 5-7 feet (uphill). When I sight and zero my peep sights at the top set of targets, by the time I am shooting at the lower targets, I am hitting them low at the 7 and 8 ring. I am not the greatest shooter but I get a score of about 170-180 shooting prone. The top bulls are always much better than the bottom ones.
I forgot my high school physics.
Is it normal to have to adjust in this circumstance where I am already shooting upwards?
I feel I am chasing my tail.
I'll average 46-48 on the top bulls and only 37-40 on the bottom ones with a clear low pattern.
Can anyone set me straight or point me in the right direction....I have only been shooting for a few weeks. Thanks for any tips.
Newbie help: sighting different target elevations
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Guest
EB,
You should not need to adjust your sights to compensate for the height of the target in this way. The difference is about 18 inches from the sighter to the bottom scoring targets. Over 50 yards this isn't much really, just over 1/2 a degree.
I think it may be a question of body alignment that's causing the problem. Are you re-establishing your natural point of aim (NPA) when you move from the top targets to the bottom. This will normally mean wriggling your hips forwards a little to point the muzzle downwards, without you having to pull/push it down with your arms. If you are forcing the rifle onto aim, you're fighting the sling which disrupts the recoil.
Tim S
Taunton UK
You should not need to adjust your sights to compensate for the height of the target in this way. The difference is about 18 inches from the sighter to the bottom scoring targets. Over 50 yards this isn't much really, just over 1/2 a degree.
I think it may be a question of body alignment that's causing the problem. Are you re-establishing your natural point of aim (NPA) when you move from the top targets to the bottom. This will normally mean wriggling your hips forwards a little to point the muzzle downwards, without you having to pull/push it down with your arms. If you are forcing the rifle onto aim, you're fighting the sling which disrupts the recoil.
Tim S
Taunton UK
Tim
I check my natural point of aim but I usually just adjust left to right. I'll try the up and down by moving my hips. When I finish my shot, I usually see the same target picture as when I pull the trigger. If it is different, it usually goes right or left and I think (not sure yet) that this is usually due to me not establishing a proper natural point of aim laterally.
The round is going up say 8 feet to the top target and only up say 6 feet to the bottom target. The gravity vector does change the drop depending on the angle that one is shooting up. Maybe I am thinking of this wrong.
I will try your advice, thank you very much.
I check my natural point of aim but I usually just adjust left to right. I'll try the up and down by moving my hips. When I finish my shot, I usually see the same target picture as when I pull the trigger. If it is different, it usually goes right or left and I think (not sure yet) that this is usually due to me not establishing a proper natural point of aim laterally.
The round is going up say 8 feet to the top target and only up say 6 feet to the bottom target. The gravity vector does change the drop depending on the angle that one is shooting up. Maybe I am thinking of this wrong.
I will try your advice, thank you very much.
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2650 Plus
Elevation changes
I would expect greater elevation changes as my barrel heats up than from gravity issues at 50 meters' I will speculate that you are having position problems as you adjust for the hight of the target. Greater cheek pressure may be the culprit. Hope you solve the problem soon . Good Shooting Bill Horton
It is something related to positioning of my body.
I really spent a lot of time getting comfortable yesterday and tried my best to get a good natural point of alignment.
I shot my best score to date. 189 or 191 prone from 50 yards (can't remember the exact score, I have the target in my bag). On a lower level Bull, I got 4 tens and 1 nine......so, I'd say it wasn't my sight adjustment. I am amazed at how sensitive the follow through is to body positioning, but I guess this is old news. For a new shooter, the level of precision required is eye opening.
I do notice that I seem to have more cheek pressure at times, but have not figured out why or when, yet. Sometimes the sling is tighter too. It seems hard to get the exact position each time.
I think you guys got my on the right track. Thanks very much.
I really spent a lot of time getting comfortable yesterday and tried my best to get a good natural point of alignment.
I shot my best score to date. 189 or 191 prone from 50 yards (can't remember the exact score, I have the target in my bag). On a lower level Bull, I got 4 tens and 1 nine......so, I'd say it wasn't my sight adjustment. I am amazed at how sensitive the follow through is to body positioning, but I guess this is old news. For a new shooter, the level of precision required is eye opening.
I do notice that I seem to have more cheek pressure at times, but have not figured out why or when, yet. Sometimes the sling is tighter too. It seems hard to get the exact position each time.
I think you guys got my on the right track. Thanks very much.
If you can borrow a high powered scope (12x or more) to mount on your rifle, you can play with your position and immediately see results in the stability of the target in the scope. Any tension will show up (and the higher the scope's power, the worse any wobble due to position error will be).
You don't even have to dry fire, but if you are having trigger related problems these will also become very apparent when you dry fire.
Try getting into position and relaxing, then just watching the sights (do this with no target) to see how steady you hold and how big a movement your pulse causes. After doing so, add a target and adjust NPA to get the same small hold. This is to first train your brain as to what can be done.
You don't even have to dry fire, but if you are having trigger related problems these will also become very apparent when you dry fire.
Try getting into position and relaxing, then just watching the sights (do this with no target) to see how steady you hold and how big a movement your pulse causes. After doing so, add a target and adjust NPA to get the same small hold. This is to first train your brain as to what can be done.
No, the gun should not matter. it is your position, and learning to relax and see how steady you can hold that is important. 9x may be a little on the low side, but give it a try.
Also, after finding a stable position, and seeing where the sight wants to point, try holding the sight on a different spot to see how much less steady it it. Then go back to the steady spot, and finally adjust NPA to the spot that had been unsteady when just trying to hold on it, and see the difference.
Good luck.
Also, after finding a stable position, and seeing where the sight wants to point, try holding the sight on a different spot to see how much less steady it it. Then go back to the steady spot, and finally adjust NPA to the spot that had been unsteady when just trying to hold on it, and see the difference.
Good luck.
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Guest
Pat
Thanks for your help. I've focused on relaxing and getting as good of a NPA as I can and my scores are now consistently in the mid 180's prone from 50 yards.
I seem to get one rally bad shot per bull even when I called all good shots. If I could just get my 4-5 bad shots to be say 8's, I'd be in the 190's. I might try different ammo (using Wolf Match now)
I've only been shooting for about 7 weeks now and it is getting addicting. Thanks again.
Thanks for your help. I've focused on relaxing and getting as good of a NPA as I can and my scores are now consistently in the mid 180's prone from 50 yards.
I seem to get one rally bad shot per bull even when I called all good shots. If I could just get my 4-5 bad shots to be say 8's, I'd be in the 190's. I might try different ammo (using Wolf Match now)
I've only been shooting for about 7 weeks now and it is getting addicting. Thanks again.
Glad you are progressing. Are your wide shots always in the same direction? If so, which? You should be shooting during the natural respiratory pause, ie when you have exhaled, not with any air held in your lungs. Holding air can often lead to high or low shots as you exhale in conjunction with firing the shot.
Next step: what are you thinking about during the shot? You need a pre-shot routine (write it down) that is the same foe every shot. Try picturing either the perfect sight picture, or the pellet going thru the 10 dot, and letting the trigger go by itself.
Next step: what are you thinking about during the shot? You need a pre-shot routine (write it down) that is the same foe every shot. Try picturing either the perfect sight picture, or the pellet going thru the 10 dot, and letting the trigger go by itself.
Pat
I was holding my breath at full inhalation. I will now hold it when I exhale as you wrote....thanks.
I just went over all of my targets and of the really bad shots, 57% are high and left (I shoot right handed), 21% are Low and left and the rest are scattered all over. If I could just turn those several 5, 6's and 7's per round into say not so bad 8's, my scores would be a lot better.
I am shooting on a slight sidehill in the grass with the left higher than my right. I doubt this is the reason, but it feels like I have to compensate. I have no idea what could cause this high left and left shots. I doubt it is the ammo, I am shooting Wolf Match and although it is not the best, it is much better than my ability and probably overkill for my level.
My routine takes less than 15 seconds and goes like this
1. Load
2. Get my cheek comfortable
3. Get the rear and front sights lined up (concentric with each other)
4. Get the front hole centered on the bull
5. I take my last breath in and hold (will exhale now)
6. I focus on the front sight and try not to have any thoughts in my brain
7. I try to very slowly squeeze the trigger almost like I am in a dream(maybe I am too deliberate and should squeeze harder)
7. I try not to move for a couple seconds after the shot
8. I immediately reload and repeat, doing no more than 10 rounds w/o getting up and stretching.
I could not analyse the shots on my existing targets to see if it is fatigue...I don't always shoot in the same order so it is hard to see if the last bulls have the bad shots. Someone told me I should always start top left and work down that column. Then, move over a column and work down that one. He said it is easier to maintain NPA that way.
Pat, Thanks again.
I was holding my breath at full inhalation. I will now hold it when I exhale as you wrote....thanks.
I just went over all of my targets and of the really bad shots, 57% are high and left (I shoot right handed), 21% are Low and left and the rest are scattered all over. If I could just turn those several 5, 6's and 7's per round into say not so bad 8's, my scores would be a lot better.
I am shooting on a slight sidehill in the grass with the left higher than my right. I doubt this is the reason, but it feels like I have to compensate. I have no idea what could cause this high left and left shots. I doubt it is the ammo, I am shooting Wolf Match and although it is not the best, it is much better than my ability and probably overkill for my level.
My routine takes less than 15 seconds and goes like this
1. Load
2. Get my cheek comfortable
3. Get the rear and front sights lined up (concentric with each other)
4. Get the front hole centered on the bull
5. I take my last breath in and hold (will exhale now)
6. I focus on the front sight and try not to have any thoughts in my brain
7. I try to very slowly squeeze the trigger almost like I am in a dream(maybe I am too deliberate and should squeeze harder)
7. I try not to move for a couple seconds after the shot
8. I immediately reload and repeat, doing no more than 10 rounds w/o getting up and stretching.
I could not analyse the shots on my existing targets to see if it is fatigue...I don't always shoot in the same order so it is hard to see if the last bulls have the bad shots. Someone told me I should always start top left and work down that column. Then, move over a column and work down that one. He said it is easier to maintain NPA that way.
Pat, Thanks again.
Glad to see you have a routine for your shots. In number 6, it is impossible to not have any thoughts in your head, so either you put in a positive thought or take the chance of having extraneous thoughts impinge. This is where you add the thought picture of the perfect sight picture or the bullet going thru the ten.
One very important thing missing is after the shot, after following thru, you need to call your shot. You should know where the shot went by seeing where the sight was aligned when it went off. Then confirm your call by looking thru the spotting scope. Soon you will be calling 95%+ of your shots, and understanding where the wide shots come from.
One very important thing missing is after the shot, after following thru, you need to call your shot. You should know where the shot went by seeing where the sight was aligned when it went off. Then confirm your call by looking thru the spotting scope. Soon you will be calling 95%+ of your shots, and understanding where the wide shots come from.
Thanks again!
Holding my breath after exhaling has produced the desired result of getting rid of the stray shots. Like magic. Thanks.
It has helped my average score increase by 5-6 points and my worst shots are now an occasional 8....no 5, 6's or 7's in the last couple hundred shots.
I did not include calling my shot in the routine because I do not have a spotting scope (I've only been shooting about 7-8 weeks and have a lot of time but money is a bit tight at the moment). I saw a BSA scope for about $150 on one of the online shooters retailers but do not know if it is any good....I can't buy a top of the line scope right now. I think I also need a glove and some elbow pads. I just shoot in a teeshirt. My elbows and left hand start to hurt and that might explain why my first bull is pretty good.....I go like 48-49 on the first bull to 47-48 on the second to 45-46 on the third to 44-45 on the fourth one.
I do think the scope is probably what I need because I sometimes 5 nice tight shots.....all in the 9 ring. With a scope, I might be able to recalibrate myself after the one bad shot.
Holding my breath after exhaling has produced the desired result of getting rid of the stray shots. Like magic. Thanks.
It has helped my average score increase by 5-6 points and my worst shots are now an occasional 8....no 5, 6's or 7's in the last couple hundred shots.
I did not include calling my shot in the routine because I do not have a spotting scope (I've only been shooting about 7-8 weeks and have a lot of time but money is a bit tight at the moment). I saw a BSA scope for about $150 on one of the online shooters retailers but do not know if it is any good....I can't buy a top of the line scope right now. I think I also need a glove and some elbow pads. I just shoot in a teeshirt. My elbows and left hand start to hurt and that might explain why my first bull is pretty good.....I go like 48-49 on the first bull to 47-48 on the second to 45-46 on the third to 44-45 on the fourth one.
I do think the scope is probably what I need because I sometimes 5 nice tight shots.....all in the 9 ring. With a scope, I might be able to recalibrate myself after the one bad shot.
For a starter you should look at http://swfa.com/Barska-8-24x58-Benchmar ... P7065.aspx. Can always pass it on to another new shooter when you're ready to move up.
You need a shooting jacket to protect your elbows, and an old piece of carpet will work as a prone mat. You can use a ski glove 9check any school lost and found), or lined work glove. Doesn't have to be fancy.
Be sure your rifle is resting on the "meat" of the base of your thumb, not in the palm of your hand. If in the palm, it can cause flexion in the wrist and discomfort.
Start calling your shots, even without a scope. You should even call your dry fire shots. You'll be supprised when you look at a group with a wide shot, and remember you'd called it.
Keep at it, and try putting that Picture" in your head and letting the gun go off by itself.
You need a shooting jacket to protect your elbows, and an old piece of carpet will work as a prone mat. You can use a ski glove 9check any school lost and found), or lined work glove. Doesn't have to be fancy.
Be sure your rifle is resting on the "meat" of the base of your thumb, not in the palm of your hand. If in the palm, it can cause flexion in the wrist and discomfort.
Start calling your shots, even without a scope. You should even call your dry fire shots. You'll be supprised when you look at a group with a wide shot, and remember you'd called it.
Keep at it, and try putting that Picture" in your head and letting the gun go off by itself.
Jay,
I got an old glove and am using an sleeping bag mat (camping type) which has helped on the comfort front quite a bit. I ordered a Barska 20-60 scope and it should be here next week. It will help because I often will shoot a group of 5 or 10 and they will all be offset to one direction (but a pretty decent group). I am hoping for 1-3 point improvement in my average scores when I get the scope.
My last round of prone scores (20 shots) from 50 yards have been 187, 188, 189, 188, 192, 188, 188, and 193. So, your advice has been helpful as I am improving.
I am pondering buying a jacket......maybe the Gehmann ISSF Canvas & Leather or Monard has a pretty reasonable priced one, too. I am not sure if I am good enough yet for a jacket. I know it is the Indian and not the arrow so to speak, but I am wondering if I have not improved enough that the coat will improve my scores.
Thanks again
Thanks very much again for your help.
I got an old glove and am using an sleeping bag mat (camping type) which has helped on the comfort front quite a bit. I ordered a Barska 20-60 scope and it should be here next week. It will help because I often will shoot a group of 5 or 10 and they will all be offset to one direction (but a pretty decent group). I am hoping for 1-3 point improvement in my average scores when I get the scope.
My last round of prone scores (20 shots) from 50 yards have been 187, 188, 189, 188, 192, 188, 188, and 193. So, your advice has been helpful as I am improving.
I am pondering buying a jacket......maybe the Gehmann ISSF Canvas & Leather or Monard has a pretty reasonable priced one, too. I am not sure if I am good enough yet for a jacket. I know it is the Indian and not the arrow so to speak, but I am wondering if I have not improved enough that the coat will improve my scores.
Thanks again
Thanks very much again for your help.
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Guest
I'll be confident that a jacket will improve your scores, so you really shouldn't be worried about not being good enough for one. For prone smallbore, a shooting jacket isn't something that you normally "progress" to.
The jacket isn't just for cushioning your elbows. The most important benefits are to add rigidity to your upper body, and also to transfer the weight of the rifle from your sling arm to your back. The sling can be hooked or buckled onto the jacket, so it doesn't have to be really tight around your upper arm to stop it falling down. All this means a much more comfortable and stable position.
To be effective the jacket must fit snuggly around your chest and shoulders, otherwise the weight of the rifle will pull on the sling and jacket dragging them down. A quick check for fit is to put on the jacket, stand up, and raise your arms to shoulder height. Then bend your elbows. Now try to bring your elbows together, ideally you shouldn't be able to move them more than a few inches. If they touch, the jacket is too big.
good shooting
Tim S
Taunton UK
The jacket isn't just for cushioning your elbows. The most important benefits are to add rigidity to your upper body, and also to transfer the weight of the rifle from your sling arm to your back. The sling can be hooked or buckled onto the jacket, so it doesn't have to be really tight around your upper arm to stop it falling down. All this means a much more comfortable and stable position.
To be effective the jacket must fit snuggly around your chest and shoulders, otherwise the weight of the rifle will pull on the sling and jacket dragging them down. A quick check for fit is to put on the jacket, stand up, and raise your arms to shoulder height. Then bend your elbows. Now try to bring your elbows together, ideally you shouldn't be able to move them more than a few inches. If they touch, the jacket is too big.
good shooting
Tim S
Taunton UK