Starting ISSF style shooting has been tried around here and has always ended as soon as it started. There is just not enough interest in it.
Anything with reactive targets is very popular - ISSF is looked at as boring and expensive. I am not sure how you get around that. It isn't the most exciting shooting sport, but then that is just the nature of the game. Neither is NRA bullseye pistol but it seems to be fairly popular. Expensive, yes, but no more so than getting equipped to be competitive in 3-gun, defensive pistol, and especially cowboy action. I know guys that spend enough on cowboy action to equip an entire squad of rifle shooters!
There is also a lack of indoor ranges in this area. They were used quite a bit so it was not do to lack of use. I think it came down to expense of upgrading the environmental controls and the skyrocketing cost of liability insurance.
With the recent upswing in interest in airguns in the US maybe there is a chance for starting some winter indoor airgun leagues. I'm not talking just ISSF but maybe even indoor AR silhouette, sporter match etc. Coupled with a German style ISSF league you might be able to get some shooters to give shoulder to shoulder ISSF AR a try. Having a few rifles on hand for people to use if they want to give ISSF a try would be a big help too. I don't know, just a thought. We had an archery shop here that put on an indoor 3-d league during the winter. Hugely popular, large crowds, and it was not anything fancy. Commonly had over 50 shooters at each shoot.
"Outsider" Olympics?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Great responses!
Hmmm . . . not so sure I was implying we need to get rid of USAS/change NGB to NRA/etc.
The article in the WSJ I think implied that in order to stimulate innovation and opportunity the o"maverick track" was very valuable for the health of the sport.
Let the IOC/USOC and NGBs do their button-downed bureaucratic things like they always do.
However, where are the incubators of new ideas? Where are the opportunities for non-junior & non-military athletes?
I agree, the shooting sports are*not* the same as the Kewl X-Snow Rad Party Games . . .
Hmmm . . . not so sure I was implying we need to get rid of USAS/change NGB to NRA/etc.
The article in the WSJ I think implied that in order to stimulate innovation and opportunity the o"maverick track" was very valuable for the health of the sport.
Let the IOC/USOC and NGBs do their button-downed bureaucratic things like they always do.
However, where are the incubators of new ideas? Where are the opportunities for non-junior & non-military athletes?
I agree, the shooting sports are*not* the same as the Kewl X-Snow Rad Party Games . . .
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thomasB
Will shooting sport continue to be included in the Olympic? Personal, I think it will for the forseeable future, my reason being IOC is a still a rather "Euro Centric" organization, shooting sport is much popular in contries like Grmany; Norway; Finland...etc, a few days ago, IOC is musing about the US and Canada women hockey's total domination of the game, threatening something must be done about it or it won't be included in any future winter Olympic, to me its just prove IOC's bias to ward European countries, I mean how many yrs did the Euros dominted winter sports like ski jumping; bobsleigh; speed skating...etc and I never heard the IOC said we got to do something or the Dutch and Norwegian can pack up their skate and skis and don't come back next time.
Its true shooting sport like Bundesliga have a much larger and better inform following in European countries, that just the way it is, I'm very doubtful it will work by copying them on this side of the pond, I mean no one will dream of starting a baseball league in lets say Poland and expect a large turnout.
The bottom line; I think shooting sport is safe in the Olympic for the time being, but that doesn't mean we can sit on our collective butts, we all need to do our share to help keep the flame burning.
Sorry if this post seems got off the original topic, just ranting.
Its true shooting sport like Bundesliga have a much larger and better inform following in European countries, that just the way it is, I'm very doubtful it will work by copying them on this side of the pond, I mean no one will dream of starting a baseball league in lets say Poland and expect a large turnout.
The bottom line; I think shooting sport is safe in the Olympic for the time being, but that doesn't mean we can sit on our collective butts, we all need to do our share to help keep the flame burning.
Sorry if this post seems got off the original topic, just ranting.
That and at the young ages, team sports are good for the inept. A kid without skill can play for years because he's hidden in the crowd.AnthonyT wrote:I'm not sure how we make shooting as inviting a sports choice as soccer. Parents seem to like the team sports as they can go and cheer and yell and say to the guy next to them "Hey that was my kid!"
Another factor that has made youth team sports grow is the fact that in the very young divisions they don't even keep score. No one wins or loses, all the kids get a trophy. I am sure there is some warm and fuzzy reason for this, but it sure doesn't give a child playing in that environment any reason to improve. Play bad get rewarded, play good get the same reward. Guess it makes all the parents feel good because their kid is "playing" on such and such a team.
Hard not to keep score in rifle. The cold hard results are right there on the paper. No warm and fuzzy feeling when you know you didn't shoot as well as you could have, just the awful feeling you get when you know you really blew it big time.
Hard not to keep score in rifle. The cold hard results are right there on the paper. No warm and fuzzy feeling when you know you didn't shoot as well as you could have, just the awful feeling you get when you know you really blew it big time.
Anthony
I agree with most of your comments, but would add that the Euro - Centric IOC is not as dominant as it once was. This is because the far Eastern countries such as China, India, Korea etc have taken to ISSF shooting in a big way and they would never vote to dump it.
Other countries dedicated to ISSF shooting are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South America in general and surprisingly some Arab countries not to mention Israel. All these countries and i'm sure there are plenty more would not be happy if shooting was dumped from the Olympics.
So on a global scale, I think its safe.
JSB
I agree with most of your comments, but would add that the Euro - Centric IOC is not as dominant as it once was. This is because the far Eastern countries such as China, India, Korea etc have taken to ISSF shooting in a big way and they would never vote to dump it.
Other countries dedicated to ISSF shooting are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South America in general and surprisingly some Arab countries not to mention Israel. All these countries and i'm sure there are plenty more would not be happy if shooting was dumped from the Olympics.
So on a global scale, I think its safe.
JSB
Hi every one
I 'm French Shooters leaving near Paris, shooting Rifle 10m 50m and 300m and the crossbow 10m Match.
I have read all the posts, we have the same problems all other the countrys.
In Europe the great nation of shooting is Germany, with much 1 million licences, they have a great market.
You know that 80 % of the gear like rifle gun jacket pants pellets cartidges tripod scope target carrier ....are from Germany, since a long time.
The last French manufacturers have closes their doors (remember that Jean Pierre Amat Olympic championship in Atlanta : Gold in 3x40 and Bronze in air Rifle shot the smallbore with a French Rifle, 6 mounth later they closed)
We are around 200.000 shooters in France but only few competitors and many of them are old ( i'm 61 ).
We look on our Neigboors the germans, we have copy their competition style of Bundesliga but we have not enough club's shooters to have 5 members includind a women or junior.
The success of the bundesliga is clear, they shoot between us, like a small European championships, the best thing for us is that some French shooters are in the teams ( and some US like Bayerle and moren european)
The german are self sufficcient between us, all nations come in their teams.
They have (germans) the medias with us, not in France where the firearm have a bad press, and synonym of violence, they have a great market, sponsors and public base.
The youth in France: many boys and girls in shool shoot but few in junior and less in adult, a great challenge hard to win in France.
Hope you have understand with my basic English.
Gerhard
I 'm French Shooters leaving near Paris, shooting Rifle 10m 50m and 300m and the crossbow 10m Match.
I have read all the posts, we have the same problems all other the countrys.
In Europe the great nation of shooting is Germany, with much 1 million licences, they have a great market.
You know that 80 % of the gear like rifle gun jacket pants pellets cartidges tripod scope target carrier ....are from Germany, since a long time.
The last French manufacturers have closes their doors (remember that Jean Pierre Amat Olympic championship in Atlanta : Gold in 3x40 and Bronze in air Rifle shot the smallbore with a French Rifle, 6 mounth later they closed)
We are around 200.000 shooters in France but only few competitors and many of them are old ( i'm 61 ).
We look on our Neigboors the germans, we have copy their competition style of Bundesliga but we have not enough club's shooters to have 5 members includind a women or junior.
The success of the bundesliga is clear, they shoot between us, like a small European championships, the best thing for us is that some French shooters are in the teams ( and some US like Bayerle and moren european)
The german are self sufficcient between us, all nations come in their teams.
They have (germans) the medias with us, not in France where the firearm have a bad press, and synonym of violence, they have a great market, sponsors and public base.
The youth in France: many boys and girls in shool shoot but few in junior and less in adult, a great challenge hard to win in France.
Hope you have understand with my basic English.
Gerhard
HAHA. Well I just fell offf my chair laughing. Here in New Zealand we have about 100 ISSF pistol shooters, a similar number of ISSF rifle shooters and about 12 ISSF shotgun shooters! Most pistol shooters shoot IPSC, most smallbore rifle shooters shoot 25yard indoor and the shotties all love the DTL! That's out of a total membership of those three organisations that numbers about 10,000.JSBmatch wrote:Anthony
Other countries dedicated to ISSF shooting are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South America in general and surprisingly some Arab countries not to mention Israel.
JSB
The simple fact is, where there's choice of shooting disciplines available, ISSF is not attractive to new shooters (and it's so much more technically difficult for the beginner). We are seen as stuffy and boring.
JSBMATCH, don't know where you get your info from bt suggesting that Canada is a great supporter of ISSF shooting makes the rest of your post suspect. We don't even have 1 decent World Class facility, we struggle to even hold our own Nationals. The NGB has very low membership and dropping. So I wouldnt count Canada as a big supporter of ISSF shoot.
Richard
Firstly, I appologise for misrepresenting Canada and also other countries I mentioned such as New Zealand. I was under the impression that these countries were big supporters of ISSF shooting, but I did not know how low it is in Canada or NZ. I think the far East countries are big supporters as is Europe and Skandinavia.
What do you think are the reasons for Canada's low interest, is it politics or shooters prefer other forms of shooting which is cheaper and perhaps more informal and more fun?
JSB
Firstly, I appologise for misrepresenting Canada and also other countries I mentioned such as New Zealand. I was under the impression that these countries were big supporters of ISSF shooting, but I did not know how low it is in Canada or NZ. I think the far East countries are big supporters as is Europe and Skandinavia.
What do you think are the reasons for Canada's low interest, is it politics or shooters prefer other forms of shooting which is cheaper and perhaps more informal and more fun?
JSB
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Nigel
New Zealand hosts the Oceania regional championships, usually alternating with Australia. They have some type of presence with the ISSF. Clearly any external support beyond that would be related to membership size, small numbers means small budgets.JSBmatch wrote:Richard
Firstly, I appologise for misrepresenting Canada and also other countries I mentioned such as New Zealand. I was under the impression that these countries were big supporters of ISSF shooting, but I did not know how low it is in Canada or NZ. I think the far East countries are big supporters as is Europe and Skandinavia.
What do you think are the reasons for Canada's low interest, is it politics or shooters prefer other forms of shooting which is cheaper and perhaps more informal and more fun?
JSB
One of the big problems is that in some states, juniors can't shoot pistols recreationally, under supervision.
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Nigel
In the US, there doesn't appear to be any. There is certainly opportunity to compete on the world stage. If you can shoot high level scores consistently in competition then you will be selected for the national team. But from a financial perspective? You would need to win the lotto or find a sugar mommy, or perhaps be "adopted" by a European country?Steve Swartz as Guest wrote:
However, where are the incubators of new ideas? Where are the opportunities for non-junior & non-military athletes?
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Nigel
I think you are correct on the expense being part of the reason people opt out of ISSF shooting. Not the equipment expense, it cost just as much if not more to be competitive in 3-gun or cowboy action, but the expense of getting to matches. There are so few ISSF shoots in some areas that the travel budget starts to get fairly high. When I was on a junior team (that no longer exists) we went to a ton of matches, the cost wasn't that bad because we all chipped in, slept as many people as we could pack in a room, etc. It was cheaper for me to shoot than it was to play hockey, ski, etc. When you are a lone ISSF shooter the costs of getting to the match, paying for the match fees, etc really adds up. If you want to attend international events it is pretty much out of the question for the average person going it alone.
Postal matches are one option and are fun, but shooting shoulder to shoulder is needed too.
I read a lot of posts on Target Talk about how if you really want to shoot the cost is not a problem. Well, I don't see it that way. If you are a normal person with a family, a house, bills, and you like to eat, then money does matter. I doubt there are many people who can say it is not a monetary big deal to fly all over the country to shoot, pay for room and board, pay for match fees, and still make ends meet.
Postal matches are one option and are fun, but shooting shoulder to shoulder is needed too.
I read a lot of posts on Target Talk about how if you really want to shoot the cost is not a problem. Well, I don't see it that way. If you are a normal person with a family, a house, bills, and you like to eat, then money does matter. I doubt there are many people who can say it is not a monetary big deal to fly all over the country to shoot, pay for room and board, pay for match fees, and still make ends meet.
Well if you are at a high level and fly to large comps all over or there are none in your area, the cost of travel would most likely be an issue.
I live in southern Ontario were you can shoot in matches almost monthly and you'd be hard pressed to drive more than 3 hours max to get to any of them (from the large urban centers your looking at closer to 2 hours max). Yet even with this many matches w still don't have people falling over each other to compete. So although cost might be an issue for some and in some situations, I don't think its and issue for the sport as a whole. Look at the popularity of skiing, which for the vast majority of people requires substantial travel, the season is short and the equipment cost are very close to the cost of shooting. People still ski, is shooting a sport for the poor probably not but it's also more accessible than some other very popular sports.
I live in southern Ontario were you can shoot in matches almost monthly and you'd be hard pressed to drive more than 3 hours max to get to any of them (from the large urban centers your looking at closer to 2 hours max). Yet even with this many matches w still don't have people falling over each other to compete. So although cost might be an issue for some and in some situations, I don't think its and issue for the sport as a whole. Look at the popularity of skiing, which for the vast majority of people requires substantial travel, the season is short and the equipment cost are very close to the cost of shooting. People still ski, is shooting a sport for the poor probably not but it's also more accessible than some other very popular sports.
Last edited by Richard H on Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not any more! Since our only suitable range was closed, the Oceania champs have become lodged in Aus! Much to their dissaproval I might add. Due to the previously mentioned outrageously high cost of running an ISSF approved event they will loose a lot of money running it.Nigel wrote:New Zealand hosts the Oceania regional championships, usually alternating with Australia.
JSBmatch wrote:Richard
Firstly, I appologise for misrepresenting Canada and also other countries I mentioned such as New Zealand. I was under the impression that these countries were big supporters of ISSF shooting, but I did not know how low it is in Canada or NZ. I think the far East countries are big supporters as is Europe and Skandinavia.
What do you think are the reasons for Canada's low interest, is it politics or shooters prefer other forms of shooting which is cheaper and perhaps more informal and more fun?
JSB
No need to apologize, sometimes looking from the outside in makes things look nice.
I think you are confusing the support from those that like the sport to the support of the general population in basically all those countries. All those countries do have a passionate shooter base. That base in most countries is just to small to have much political clout. Even in the countries of the world where shooting is popular, the simple fact is firearms are under attack. Finland is talking about gun bans, the UK has banned handguns, look at the stuff regarding gun bans and buy backs in Australia.
JSB your from the UK, what got your guns banned, it's no different in the rest of the world. Most countries are just a bad incident away from having them taken away.
If I treated you like a criminal just because you wanted to buy running shoes I'm pretty sure running would take a hit.
I pretty certain it has very little to do with cost as IPSC does well, considering they shoot tons of ammo, full race guns are just as expensive, through into that 3-gun matches.
There are lots of things to choose from and people just see the whole process as a hassle. The bitching and whining that shooters do themselves doesn't help either. They scare people off because of a process that really is not that difficult just a little time consuming.
Outsider Olympics
I agree with most of what has been said. ISSF shooting is for participation, and is not much of a spectator sport.
I recently competed in the World Masters Games in Sydney, at the Olympic Range. It was a fantastic experience, - shooting all matches with electronic targets, and there were some spectators sitting in the stands watching the score from every shot as it was fired.
I have been shooting on paper targets for the last 40+ years. The only times there were any spectators were at the State or National Championships, and then they were mostly family and other shooters.
Target shooting has changed. In a small country there are no sponsors.You are lucky if there is any government support to go to a major competition - and that is only for the "elite shooters".
If you are good enough to make the State Team there is some help from the Shooting Association.
The only fully electronic range in Australia is in Sydney, and in Melbourne there is a free pistol electronic range, and some air pistol targets.
Here in Victoria we have a very good postal competition - 4 rounds of all events (all ISSF matches, and action Match, Service match & black powder.) Each round is shot at your home range, and the Grand finals are shot shoulder to shoulder at a designated venue. Teams are of 3 or 4 shooters. It has been going on for the last 40+ years, and is very popular. All the top shooters participate, as well as lower grades, so everyone can try to get into their Club teams at various levels.
This level of shooting encourages new champions, and it should possibly be looked into, so others can use a similar format to encourage their lower grade shooters to participate, and reach a higher level.
The German shooting (on that web site) seems to be in a similar vein.
Alex L. in warm, sunny Melbourne!
I recently competed in the World Masters Games in Sydney, at the Olympic Range. It was a fantastic experience, - shooting all matches with electronic targets, and there were some spectators sitting in the stands watching the score from every shot as it was fired.
I have been shooting on paper targets for the last 40+ years. The only times there were any spectators were at the State or National Championships, and then they were mostly family and other shooters.
Target shooting has changed. In a small country there are no sponsors.You are lucky if there is any government support to go to a major competition - and that is only for the "elite shooters".
If you are good enough to make the State Team there is some help from the Shooting Association.
The only fully electronic range in Australia is in Sydney, and in Melbourne there is a free pistol electronic range, and some air pistol targets.
Here in Victoria we have a very good postal competition - 4 rounds of all events (all ISSF matches, and action Match, Service match & black powder.) Each round is shot at your home range, and the Grand finals are shot shoulder to shoulder at a designated venue. Teams are of 3 or 4 shooters. It has been going on for the last 40+ years, and is very popular. All the top shooters participate, as well as lower grades, so everyone can try to get into their Club teams at various levels.
This level of shooting encourages new champions, and it should possibly be looked into, so others can use a similar format to encourage their lower grade shooters to participate, and reach a higher level.
The German shooting (on that web site) seems to be in a similar vein.
Alex L. in warm, sunny Melbourne!