Let's discuss Orion, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.
First, please state if you own a copy (when purchased) or if you've actually operated it under Match Conditions. Have you updated to the latest version?
Second, your experiences with scoring accuracy. Did you win a "challenge" for score? Please Describe.
Third, Suggested Improvements? Please use "layman's Term" about what we should ask the Developer to fix.
Forth, Overall Impression?
Let's see what there is to talk about.
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
www.OleMillRange.org
Spalding Co Shooting Sports
Orion
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
-
Guest
Just shot our state high school champoionship at Henderson high school (ky). He used the orion for the first time. Claimed it would be quicker and save lots of time. It took two days to get the results! He had a lot of issues with using it on a mass scale. Had to rescan many targets, etc... I know CMP uses it very successfully. the coaches name was Victor Rosentreter. You might give him a call and ask him about his experience and the pros/cons of it. 270-831-8871 is his phone number. Very nice guy to talk to.
We tried to use it at the Duke City Cup match a few weeks ago ... 138 shooters
1) Got sent the "old" 8-1/2x11 VIS targets ... not the REQUIRED A4 kruger targets ... check this first! Don't even try to get the old ones to work.
2) Only "played" with it (on some previously shot kruger A4's) and it seems that the data import & export features need work ... I CANNOT see hand entering shooter data for each & every event. We keep a shooter database on a simple excel spreadsheet and just copy that data over to the match spreadsheets. THIS WILL BE A REQUIREMENT FOR the large matches we hold here in NM
Note: using Version 1.0.10 and a dual processor Sony Vaio with 2GB of ram (1.0.8 was no better) and a DR-3010C scanner
(I am also able to scan targets with a ACER 610S scanner ... one at a time)
3) Mucho crashes ... to me this is beta software
4) "Low" and "very low" confidence on almost all scored shots .... many under high mag I did not agree with .... scoring circle was not centered on many of the shots ... In a match I would have manually had to move many of these by hand
5) Many times what was displayed was out of sync with what had been requested .... had to shut down & restart to get back in sync
6) Orion DID NOT read the stage correctly at all ... had to be manually assigned .... also not reading the competitor number is just silly. Assigning targets looks to be a real hassle, especially with a larger number of competitors ... #5 above makes this a nightmare
7) Reformulating the results to get the output into the required CMP format would have taken a long time .... output should match CMP's requirements at the very least
Note ... using the hand scoring methods we were able to get the match results shipped off to CMP the next morning
Note#2 - as a tech person I really hate the licensing of this software ... 1 year only, then you have to relicense. I will not purchase it as a club, but will let the state association buy & license the software.
I had been hoping to use this as a coaching tool, but having to enter user data every time and the licensing method makes this undesirable .... we have to really watch our pennies, and I'd like our dollars to go to benefit the kids directly (ammo, pellets, gear) ... not to a piece of S/W that has to be re-upped every year.
===========
We're going to try again .... we have been given permission by USA Shooting to use the Kruger A4's and Orion in our INT'L Air JO Qualifier in a few weeks ... We don't have near the same number of shooters, so reverting back to hand scoring will not be the hassle it was a few weeks ago
1) Got sent the "old" 8-1/2x11 VIS targets ... not the REQUIRED A4 kruger targets ... check this first! Don't even try to get the old ones to work.
2) Only "played" with it (on some previously shot kruger A4's) and it seems that the data import & export features need work ... I CANNOT see hand entering shooter data for each & every event. We keep a shooter database on a simple excel spreadsheet and just copy that data over to the match spreadsheets. THIS WILL BE A REQUIREMENT FOR the large matches we hold here in NM
Note: using Version 1.0.10 and a dual processor Sony Vaio with 2GB of ram (1.0.8 was no better) and a DR-3010C scanner
(I am also able to scan targets with a ACER 610S scanner ... one at a time)
3) Mucho crashes ... to me this is beta software
4) "Low" and "very low" confidence on almost all scored shots .... many under high mag I did not agree with .... scoring circle was not centered on many of the shots ... In a match I would have manually had to move many of these by hand
5) Many times what was displayed was out of sync with what had been requested .... had to shut down & restart to get back in sync
6) Orion DID NOT read the stage correctly at all ... had to be manually assigned .... also not reading the competitor number is just silly. Assigning targets looks to be a real hassle, especially with a larger number of competitors ... #5 above makes this a nightmare
7) Reformulating the results to get the output into the required CMP format would have taken a long time .... output should match CMP's requirements at the very least
Note ... using the hand scoring methods we were able to get the match results shipped off to CMP the next morning
Note#2 - as a tech person I really hate the licensing of this software ... 1 year only, then you have to relicense. I will not purchase it as a club, but will let the state association buy & license the software.
I had been hoping to use this as a coaching tool, but having to enter user data every time and the licensing method makes this undesirable .... we have to really watch our pennies, and I'd like our dollars to go to benefit the kids directly (ammo, pellets, gear) ... not to a piece of S/W that has to be re-upped every year.
===========
We're going to try again .... we have been given permission by USA Shooting to use the Kruger A4's and Orion in our INT'L Air JO Qualifier in a few weeks ... We don't have near the same number of shooters, so reverting back to hand scoring will not be the hassle it was a few weeks ago
-
GCSInc
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:49 am
- Location: The Ole Mill Range Complex, Griffin GA, USA
- Contact:
OMI use of Orion Successful
OMI Successful
I'm not ready to pass Judgment one way or the other just yet, but overall we like it, it works the way we have it set up with the equipment we have. I plan on a technical Overview next week, but our OM I "Hot Wash" is Friday and I want to hear from all the Operators before we write anything for Public Consumption.
More To Follow...
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
www.OleMillRange.org
Spalding Co Shooting Sports
I'm not ready to pass Judgment one way or the other just yet, but overall we like it, it works the way we have it set up with the equipment we have. I plan on a technical Overview next week, but our OM I "Hot Wash" is Friday and I want to hear from all the Operators before we write anything for Public Consumption.
More To Follow...
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
www.OleMillRange.org
Spalding Co Shooting Sports
Roy ....
I'd really like to hear about the challenges, and your methods for them.
The current procedure of "trust us ... it's accurate" does not really square with my (admittedly limited) experience ... where now I can see where Orion is marking the holes, and I've seen too many that are off. I'll grant that the software was reporting low and very low confidence, but I've never seen it more than medium on any target ... and we recalibrated several times.
Whenever I've tried to run the target protest option, our software scored all the bulls 10.9 .... a whoops I'm sure. Maybe it's the version we are using.
Let me state here that these comments are in regards to tenths ... I will admit that on a large majority of the targets where you are only scoring whole numbers it's fine. But there are some holes that touch lines that Orion backs the hole placement away from the line ... as well as taking some that are close to the line, over.
I'd love to comment on the medium, high and very high confidence shots, but I just have not seen those on the limited targets we've scored. What I'd give for a very precise .177 hole punch that punches nice clean edges .... see what the program does with those. (Note on the Kruger targets you can get great holes .... you can see the rifling edges from the pellets)
Many have stated that these should be just like electronics, but it is not an electronic .... on those the shooter has the opportunity to protest immediately after taking the shot ... on Orion all they have to go by are the actual target and the printed sheet.
Not being able to challenge against the rings which are on the target, is really a "no challenges allowed". The only way to get around that is to only have rings on sighters and black outlines only for the record bulls.
If we are going to be using Orion (and I think we are) on the major events, then I sure would like those sitting on the 3-P council to have an in depth discussion of the challenge process .... knowing what the limitations of the software currently are.
It may sound like I'm really down on this software system. I'm not, but I see the potential and have encountered the shortfalls. I'm going to use it at our JO Qualifiers in a few weeks, and I would not if I had major doubts. I don't think USA Shooting would allow me if they had doubts either.
I think the software was developed and then tested in a vacuum at CMP and the version we have in our hands is not the same as the one CMP has. I don't think it would be fair to the shooters to blindly force this on them for all time to come if all do not have their concerns addressed.
I'd really like to hear about the challenges, and your methods for them.
The current procedure of "trust us ... it's accurate" does not really square with my (admittedly limited) experience ... where now I can see where Orion is marking the holes, and I've seen too many that are off. I'll grant that the software was reporting low and very low confidence, but I've never seen it more than medium on any target ... and we recalibrated several times.
Whenever I've tried to run the target protest option, our software scored all the bulls 10.9 .... a whoops I'm sure. Maybe it's the version we are using.
Let me state here that these comments are in regards to tenths ... I will admit that on a large majority of the targets where you are only scoring whole numbers it's fine. But there are some holes that touch lines that Orion backs the hole placement away from the line ... as well as taking some that are close to the line, over.
I'd love to comment on the medium, high and very high confidence shots, but I just have not seen those on the limited targets we've scored. What I'd give for a very precise .177 hole punch that punches nice clean edges .... see what the program does with those. (Note on the Kruger targets you can get great holes .... you can see the rifling edges from the pellets)
Many have stated that these should be just like electronics, but it is not an electronic .... on those the shooter has the opportunity to protest immediately after taking the shot ... on Orion all they have to go by are the actual target and the printed sheet.
Not being able to challenge against the rings which are on the target, is really a "no challenges allowed". The only way to get around that is to only have rings on sighters and black outlines only for the record bulls.
If we are going to be using Orion (and I think we are) on the major events, then I sure would like those sitting on the 3-P council to have an in depth discussion of the challenge process .... knowing what the limitations of the software currently are.
It may sound like I'm really down on this software system. I'm not, but I see the potential and have encountered the shortfalls. I'm going to use it at our JO Qualifiers in a few weeks, and I would not if I had major doubts. I don't think USA Shooting would allow me if they had doubts either.
I think the software was developed and then tested in a vacuum at CMP and the version we have in our hands is not the same as the one CMP has. I don't think it would be fair to the shooters to blindly force this on them for all time to come if all do not have their concerns addressed.
-
Raymond Odle
Jsut shot the cmp ROTC postal and sent in targets and they are scored. I scored my 4 person team (30 shot match 3 position) as a 1007 on targets. IF a shot was questionable, then I didn't count it the higher value. The CMP /Orion scored them as a 1020 composite. Same thing happened last year as my team gained about 12 points over what I thought the lowest score could be (not counting any plugs). So what am I saying? The ORion apporears to be an accurate indicator or scored if using the right targets and an experienced person using the scanner.
-
GCSInc
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:49 am
- Location: The Ole Mill Range Complex, Griffin GA, USA
- Contact:
How Orion Works
Raymond, and others
If I understand Orion and the way it works… If not, someone please correct me;
Orion overlays a grid on the scoring black which assigns a value (think x and y axis) to the hole within the scoring black. It would be better if the scoring rings were not present, but they are. You can’t think in terms of scoring with a plug on this system. Also remember that the scoring rings are printed on the paper and there can be calibration issues with the printed targets (it happened a lot several years ago) and that’s where the fact that it is possible to touch the ten ring, and to use an outward scoring plug and have the value of the shot be a nine.
Please read the user’s guide, or call the tech reps from Orion if you have Technical Questions.
Thanks,
Roy
If I understand Orion and the way it works… If not, someone please correct me;
Orion overlays a grid on the scoring black which assigns a value (think x and y axis) to the hole within the scoring black. It would be better if the scoring rings were not present, but they are. You can’t think in terms of scoring with a plug on this system. Also remember that the scoring rings are printed on the paper and there can be calibration issues with the printed targets (it happened a lot several years ago) and that’s where the fact that it is possible to touch the ten ring, and to use an outward scoring plug and have the value of the shot be a nine.
Please read the user’s guide, or call the tech reps from Orion if you have Technical Questions.
Thanks,
Roy
-
Orion User
How it works...
http://www.odcmp.com/OTM/09/OTM_Dec09.pdf
Pg 15 Right Column, 2nd para.
As a first step, the rules had to recognize that electronic
scoring with computer technology and manual scoring
are two completely different methods of scoring. Manual
scoring compares the outside edge of a scoring gauge with
the outside edge of a scoring ring to determine whether a
close shot receives a higher or lower value. Electronic
targets and electronic scoring, on the other hand, measure
the radial distance from the exact center of a shot hole to the
exact center of the target. Since all three scoring methods
are subject to certain tolerances that differ from one method
to the next, it is neither fair nor accurate to use one scoring
method to check the accuracy of another.
Pg 15 Right Column, 2nd para.
As a first step, the rules had to recognize that electronic
scoring with computer technology and manual scoring
are two completely different methods of scoring. Manual
scoring compares the outside edge of a scoring gauge with
the outside edge of a scoring ring to determine whether a
close shot receives a higher or lower value. Electronic
targets and electronic scoring, on the other hand, measure
the radial distance from the exact center of a shot hole to the
exact center of the target. Since all three scoring methods
are subject to certain tolerances that differ from one method
to the next, it is neither fair nor accurate to use one scoring
method to check the accuracy of another.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
This is one of the problems with target scoring machines.Raymond Odle wrote:How can a competitor have confidence in this system. The system must agree with the scoring rings, or it's wrong, not the other way.
Manual scoring of paper targets is easy. You just compare the hole position with the printed scoring rings (which have an allowable size variation in the ISSF rules).
Electronic Scoring Targets (e.g. Sius, Meyton, Megalink, etc) are easy. They compare the calculated position of the shot with the centre of the target, and then calculate the result. No scoring rings are required.
Target scoring machines try to take the paper targets, with the allowable ring size variation, but then calculate the shot score as if the rings were the correct size with no allowable variation. Use perfectly printed targets and, assuming the machine itself is correctly calibrated and the software algorithms are correct, you will get results that match manual scoring. Using targets with the allowable ring size variation will invariably give different, frequently obvious, scoring differences.
-
Roy McClain (SCSS)
Orion at The Ole Mill Invitational Nov. 20-21, 27-28, 2009
We used Orion .10 version (note .12 has just been released) to score our 2009 Ole Mill Invitational Match over the two weekends (before and after Thanksgiving). 248 competitors shot events as Individual as well as Team competitions. We used Orion exclusively for our 60 Shot Standing, 3P Air Rifle events all of which included Finals (Seven targets per person, per event) and it went very smooth. We had less than a handful of challenges, as opposed to two to three times that many for a similar manual scoring exercise. We often don't charge for challenges so the kids get used to challenging anything that's even wishfully close. When we do charge for challenges, it's never more than a dollar. That will change in the future... only about three challenges were successful with Orion. We had one challenge that even when we rescanned the Target the athlete still disagreed with the outcome. In the opinion of the Scoring Supervisor, Match Director, and Chief Range Officer, it was close, but conclusively not the higher value. That one single individual Bull (1 of 10 on the Target Sheet) out of several thousand individual Bulls that were scored over the course of the Match... Pretty good odds. I'll take that over having to hand plug the numbers it would take to get thru a similar number per Match without Orion.
We'll load Version .12 in the next few days or week and have an update for our next match. In the mean time, Lynn Wheeless is working on a users guide with input from our OMR Scoring Team and we'll hope to be able to comment on that soon too...
Best Regards and Good Shooting.
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
EODTNT1@aol.com
www.OleMillRange.org
Spalding Co. Shooting Sports
We'll load Version .12 in the next few days or week and have an update for our next match. In the mean time, Lynn Wheeless is working on a users guide with input from our OMR Scoring Team and we'll hope to be able to comment on that soon too...
Best Regards and Good Shooting.
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
EODTNT1@aol.com
www.OleMillRange.org
Spalding Co. Shooting Sports