surprise break vs. sight wobble
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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confused shooter
surprise break vs. sight wobble
I read that you are supposed to make a surprise trigger break but I also read that you are supposed to learn to break the trigger in anticipation of the sights aligning so how can it be a surprise then.
Rifle or pistol? This is an on going discussion which depends on discipline. Rifle shooter use both hands and hold very still, allowing them to concentrate (visualize) the perfect sight picture allowing the shot to break sub-consciously (a suprize). Pistol shooters seem to tend more toward an agressive trigger operation, allowing the sub-concious to move the sights into perfect alignment at the time the shot is fired. One of my athletes turned from riflr shooting to pistol shooting and after lots of work, the preceding iS what we found.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
I can only speak for rifle, but I always tell my kids, start squeezing when your hold is how you like it, and the shot will go where you like it. I tell them it's a subconscious function, that your brain will pull the trigger when it should be pulled. If you want to do a little reading on the matter, grab a copy of [u]Zen and the Art of Archery[/u].
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2650 Plus
Trigger first
I read a book on pistol shooting and ended up committing to developing a consistant application of pressure to the trigger first. Training the muscles to hold the pistol still took much longer [ Like 20 years ] My groups got smalle rand smaller I began to shoot groups smaller than the ten ring on the American target at 25 yards and finally above 95 at the 50 yard line. To me, the applicarion of a good smoothe pressure that caused me to deliver the shot on target without any reaction to the noise and recoil of the shot was absolutely necessary Hope this may help in your situation, Good Shooting Bill Horton
The trigger break is subliminal for me. I never think of breaking the shot, it just happens. Sometimes I do concentrate on the trigger pull as a training exercise, but that is on purpose. I don't even notice a 2 pound pull on a silhouette sporter rifle. I think it took about 5 years of practice to focus solely on the target, and forget about the trigger. It just happened.
It does break early sometimes as a total surprise, but it is early in the approach like a "8 or 9". I kinda know I squeezed a little early after the shot, but during the approach there is no warning sign. The early shots happen more in the beginning of the season than the end of the season. So I guess practice helps.
It does break early sometimes as a total surprise, but it is early in the approach like a "8 or 9". I kinda know I squeezed a little early after the shot, but during the approach there is no warning sign. The early shots happen more in the beginning of the season than the end of the season. So I guess practice helps.
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confused shooter
The length of time you are centered in your hold depends on your ability. Everyone must identify for themselves what their optimum hold is, and learn to break the shot during that hold.
For a beginner in rifle, I start kids on a "spoon" about 4in in diameter at 50ft. I tell them to shoot at it until they hit it 10 times. Then they move to the 3in spoon, 10 more hits, 2in spoon, 10 more hits, and then a bull. This helps them identify what a hold is. After that, they have to learn what their hold is because we usually measure it in rings, which we can't see as coaches.
A shooter who can hold roughly 5 ring for 2-3sec within the 8sec rule will want to learn to break the shot in that span. As skill increases, the 2-3sec increases and the hold improves to smaller rings.
For a beginner in rifle, I start kids on a "spoon" about 4in in diameter at 50ft. I tell them to shoot at it until they hit it 10 times. Then they move to the 3in spoon, 10 more hits, 2in spoon, 10 more hits, and then a bull. This helps them identify what a hold is. After that, they have to learn what their hold is because we usually measure it in rings, which we can't see as coaches.
A shooter who can hold roughly 5 ring for 2-3sec within the 8sec rule will want to learn to break the shot in that span. As skill increases, the 2-3sec increases and the hold improves to smaller rings.
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Guest
training! when I am shooting at the club there are often new shooters there. they are always being told not to hold it for more than 8 seconds. this is about right for the average person without training. But with training this can be changed. there are many factors that effect this. muscle tone is one. It is mostly effected by the amount of oxygen to your brain and eyes. you normally run out of oxygen there for you have to put the pistol down. If you watch a world cup final some of the shooters will release shots after around 20 seconds and some will do it in only a few seconds. some big wave surfers have the longue capasity to hold their breath for over 4 minuts. If you could do this the only factor would be how long your arm could hold it steady for.confused shooter wrote:Can you really hold on the bullseye for long enough to do that??Oz wrote:Anticipate the period of time when the sights will be aligned and then surprise break of the trigger _during that time_.
See!?! Not so easy, is it!
Oz
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2650 Plus
Post Subject
I must totally disagree with the concept described above. Even if one can hold their breath four minutes this does not translate into the four miunte shot sequence .Who amoung us can maintain a blank mind for that period of time if that is how you are trying to shoot. In my case ,I use my mind to help control the shot, That is I visualize starting the trigger moving, then establishing my best stillness of hold in my aiming area, and , finally intense concentratiop and eye focus on the front sight as I work to perfect sight allignment before the pistol fires. If I have done all this correctly I will have a reaction time space after the shot fires for follow fhrough. Even with years of training I cannot control my concentration for more than four or five secomds and satisfactory eye focus only lasts about the same amount of time. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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CR10XGuest
Dear Confused:
I'd like to review your original statement which included "break the trigger in anticipation of the sights aligning".
Please note that the sights should be aligned. Period. The trigger break may be a surprise or not, but the sights should always be aligned.
The Sight Picture (the aligned sights location relative to the perfect position on the target) may not be perfect. But as long as its within the acceptable area, you will shoot a 10. A lot of shooters will talk about timing the trigger in anticipation of the best sight picture (most probably they are talking about the time of their minimal wobble area on the target).
I think maybe some communication difficulty here. Hope this helps.
Cecil Rhodes
I'd like to review your original statement which included "break the trigger in anticipation of the sights aligning".
Please note that the sights should be aligned. Period. The trigger break may be a surprise or not, but the sights should always be aligned.
The Sight Picture (the aligned sights location relative to the perfect position on the target) may not be perfect. But as long as its within the acceptable area, you will shoot a 10. A lot of shooters will talk about timing the trigger in anticipation of the best sight picture (most probably they are talking about the time of their minimal wobble area on the target).
I think maybe some communication difficulty here. Hope this helps.
Cecil Rhodes
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Steve Swartz as Guest
Ditto what Bill and Cecil said.
*YOU* are not supposed to be able to "anticipate when the aligned sights will be in the proper aiming position."
Your SUBCONSCIOUS learns how to do this over the course of thousands of repetitions of:
"Allow the aligned sights to settle in the aiming area and apply smooth, continuous pressure to the trigger in such a manner as to not disturb the sight alignment."
What *you* described was like asking a pro baseball player to "anticipate when/where the ball will be over the plate in order to hit it."
Can't be done.
The player must trust his "instinct" (subconscious process) to make whatever calculations are necessary to intercept the ball with the bat.
*YOU* are not supposed to be able to "anticipate when the aligned sights will be in the proper aiming position."
Your SUBCONSCIOUS learns how to do this over the course of thousands of repetitions of:
"Allow the aligned sights to settle in the aiming area and apply smooth, continuous pressure to the trigger in such a manner as to not disturb the sight alignment."
What *you* described was like asking a pro baseball player to "anticipate when/where the ball will be over the plate in order to hit it."
Can't be done.
The player must trust his "instinct" (subconscious process) to make whatever calculations are necessary to intercept the ball with the bat.
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
As part of the shot process there is a time after raising the pistol (assuming we're talking about pistol here) when the sights are aligned and settled on your aiming area as well as your skill will allow. Practicing enough, this time after raising the pistol, and the cues associated with it, start to become pretty darned consistent if you follow a very consistent process.
If you wait to see this happen, you are already too late to start moving the trigger. If you wait, by the time you break the shot the optimum has passed.
It seems that what really has to happen is that your practice informs your subconscious mind to know ahead of time -- seemingly predict the future -- to get the trigger moving before that optimal time happens, so the shot will break in that optimal time. It's combination of timing and subconsciously recognizing the cues. I don't think there's more to it than that.
If you wait to see this happen, you are already too late to start moving the trigger. If you wait, by the time you break the shot the optimum has passed.
It seems that what really has to happen is that your practice informs your subconscious mind to know ahead of time -- seemingly predict the future -- to get the trigger moving before that optimal time happens, so the shot will break in that optimal time. It's combination of timing and subconsciously recognizing the cues. I don't think there's more to it than that.
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Steve Swartz as Guest
That pretty much nails it . . .
[The HARD part is actually 1. ACCEPTING the truth of the process just described; and then 2. ACTING upon that knowledge (i.e. developing a training plan accordingly) that capitalizes the process. The single biggest challenge in coaching is getting your shooters to abandon misconceptions and move forward on the knowledge . . . ]
[The HARD part is actually 1. ACCEPTING the truth of the process just described; and then 2. ACTING upon that knowledge (i.e. developing a training plan accordingly) that capitalizes the process. The single biggest challenge in coaching is getting your shooters to abandon misconceptions and move forward on the knowledge . . . ]