Pistol equivalent of "ways of the rifle" book?

[melchloboo]

Is there any book on target pistol shooting as good as, and in a similar style as "ways of the rifle?"

[trinity]

There is this book, same publisher, came out a few years ago.

http://www.mec-shot.de/produkte/fachbue ... schiessen/

I grabbed a copy in Germany at the Munich WC (maybe 2006?), unfortunately, it is in German. They were in the process of translating it, but I have no idea how far that's gotten. Looks good though...

-trinity

[melchloboo]

I understand German. Would you be interested in selling your copy?
Thanks for the tip.

[RobStubbs]

I understand German. Would you be interested in selling your copy?
Thanks for the tip.

In theory at least it's being translated to English, I just don't know how far it's got...

Rob.

[Bob-Riegl]

Well I certainly hope it's a refreshing change from the YurY'Ev book---with at least some newer revelations of newer kinesiology & psychology. I would certainly love a copy in English rather than having to translate--my German is quite rusty since I don't get a chance to speak much anymore.

[Guest]

Well I certainly hope it's a refreshing change from the YurY'Ev book---with at least some newer revelations of newer kinesiology & psychology. I would certainly love a copy in English rather than having to translate--my German is quite rusty since I don't get a chance to speak much anymore.

Just curious, in what ways do you find the Yur'Yev book lacking or outdated?

Has it never been a 4th or newer edition of the Yur'Yev book? I'm only aware of the 3th edition which was translated in English long ago.

[melchloboo]

Any reason why our host would not post my WTB post in the the buy,sell, trade forum? Does it take a few days to approve?

Personally I would be a little indifferent to German or English, the pictures are most important and the translation is a bit awkward at times in ways of the rifle. Makes me slightly concerned something was mistranslated.

What I really like about the rifle book is its agnosticism, by that I mean yes they do show what a good starting point, but then show how many great shooters deviate radically from that form. They tell you the +/- of breaking the "right" form and leave it up to you to try it out yourself.

If the pistol book is similar I'll be happy.

[Bob-Riegl]

Not really to belabor the issue of my opinions---but as a chance to answer. The fields of Kinesiology (muscle motion et al) and Sports Psychology have advanced since the late 40's into the 60's. The coaching techniques that are used in the more recent times along with newer training methods have certainly advanced the skills of our newest crop of International Pistol & Rifle shooters. A good listen to Larry Basham's current CD's by far outstrips the many old & wonderful Psychological chapter's Of Y'ur Yev. The modern machines and mechanics of measuring, recording & analyzing athletic performance has almost totally changed many ideas that we used as coaching tools in the 60's-80's. I think that this is most measurable by looking at our international shooting competitions and specifically the scores. The top scores are not only where we see major changes it is the consistency and the wider range of shooters capable of achieving those scores. Regardless of how the old Soviet Bloc produced shooters, and the current similar Chinese programs to recruit and train shooters proceeds, the methods that are used are based upon more modern approaches learned over four decades of competition. Specifically we do not and generally cannot recruit and train 13 year olds as did the Soviet Bloc and the Chinese today. Darned few American kids are drawn to our sport and survive to compete internationally and do well. Thrine Kane, a local shooter, started shooting in a junior program (because Dad was involved) and advanced her skills throughout High School and College shooting to become an Olympian, sort of a wunder kind. In the Australian Olympics she was swallowed whole by the USA squad and the Chinese and former Soviet Bloc nations were overwhelming in the rifle events. To this day I don't even think she shoots anymore.

[Guest]

Regardless of how the old Soviet Bloc produced shooters, and the current similar Chinese programs to recruit and train shooters proceeds, the methods that are used are based upon more modern approaches learned over four decades of competition.

Thanks a lot for caring to elaborate such a detailed answer. :)

Could you please tell us some examples on how the Chinese are currently training shooters? Maybe just pinpointing the bigger differences with Yur' Yev if this approach is easier for you to work out.

Eventually, I personally like the book With Winning in Mind by Lanny Bassham.

[Patrick Haynes]

Could you please tell us some examples on how the Chinese are currently training shooters?

Hi.

Last year, I had the privilege of observing the Chinese shooter training system in Taiyuan, in the Shanxi Province, last year after the Olympics. I observed an elementary sport school program, as well as the provincial training facility. I spoke to the Chinese coaches through family interpreters. My observations were then tested/reviewed this spring, as I compared my notes with my fiancee, who trained in the Shanxi facility for a month. While the span is relatively short, I think that I give some insight into their world.

I was going to write some comments, but decided to just upolad a PDF of a presentation that I gave on the subject at the Canadian Airgun Grand Prix, this February 2009, in Mississauga, Canada.

If you have any questions, I'd be happy to respond here, or via email: haynes@targetshooting.ca

Regards.
Patrick Haynes
Pistol Coach
Canadian CISM Shooting Team

[methosb]

That was a really interesting read. Did you take any notes on mental training and techniques?

[Guest]

A very intersting read indeed. Thank you, Patrick!

[Isabel1130]

Patrick, did you get any sense that the endless hours of dry firing were in any way related to the expense of training with live ammo? I am a big believer in lots of dry firing but would worry that too much of it would lead to boredom and then to carelessness for those of us non Chinese who do not have our livelihood dependant on becoming a great shooter. I have had two high masters tell me that too much training actually caused their scores to go down. One in particular experienced a drop off in performance after moving to the Olympic training center. Admittedly the Chinese are doing very well on the international circuit but a large part of it may be their ability to select for natural talent from a large pool and then provide economic incentives to keep those with talent and nerves shooting rather than their actual training methods. Kind of like if teenagers in the US had few economic opportunities and the Army Marksmanship unit was allowed to do unlimited recruiting/training and then winnow from there. Isabel

[Guest]

While I do not have any other input on the Chinese methods other than this PDF file I have to say that I totally agree with Isabel!

Yet I think their method of first dry firing, then live firing, and finally dry firing again is a good one to avoid "jerking the whole gun" under the effects of recoil.

[PaulT]

Hi Patrick, excellent PowerPoint presentation, very illuminating! It illustrated the levels of commitment and professionalism required, obviously not for the average shooter but that’s not what they are preparing for! I think we shall see the rewards of their massive investment in the coming years on the WC circuit as Beijing 2008 was too early for full fruition of their investment to be seen. I think it depends upon the sustained progression and investment of the “international” and possibly “national” ranked athletes from the previous cycle for London 2012. The 50m Pistol scores looked disproportionately high although if they already have that level of performance, it is testament to the inputs of the training strategy! Thanks for making the effort to prepare and share with us all.

I posted re the Pistol Book in the “Olympic Pistol” Forum section.

[Patrick Haynes]

Hi.

I've had a bunch of questions thrown my way. Instead of answering them individually, I've lumped them into one response. Hope that's okay. I'm glad that everyone enjoyed the presentation. I didn't manage to get all my notes in there, but I think that you got the highlights.

Mental training

Volume is key to their mental game. When you shoot 580 in AP everytime you shoot a match (every other day), you know what scores you can produce. This reduces uncertainty in the outcome and you can focus on performance. There are a lot of competitions which offer incentives for success. I feel that those who can't perform under pressure are eventually weeded out, but I saw nothing to back that up. There were no active mental training sessions and discussions about them revealed a pragmatic attitude. Nothing special happening there at the provincial level.

Dryfiring

For their new shooters, they don't get ammunition until they can release an undisturbed shot. There is no rushing livefire. They learn how to dryfire first and then they earn ammunition. When they come back from a break (seldom occurs), they dryfire until their technique is back to form, then they are given some ammunition. Again, no rush to shoot livefire.

Dryfiring could lead to boredom, but that is a personal choice. Dryfiring isn't boring if you are engaged in the execution of perfection. Dryfiring isn't boring if you are tackling a technical error. Dryfiring is boring if you allow your mind to wander and wish that you were somewhere else. If that does happen, perhaps the athlete should reconsider his/her goals. Choosing to train poorly is their decision. They need to make a conscious decision to learn and adhere to better training methods.

There is a cost factor to the ammunition, but it is made in China for them. It is very reasonably priced, so they get anywhere up to 250+/- rounds per day. Nobody wastes ammunition on poor or careless shots. The remainder of the time is spent in dryfiring.

Selection/Development

Well, they do look for physical characteristics, but that is only at first contact for selection. They also accept athletes who display nothing more than interest. Coach intuition also plays a big part. I don't believe that natural talent has anything to do with their scores. Some studies that I've read on expertise discount "natural talent" beyond the fact that those who are identified as such usually get more resources (coaches, facilities, equipment, etc.) funneled to them.

The biggest difference between advanced and expert performers, across almost all domains, is the amount of deliberate practice (usually performed in solitude) that they invest in themselves. Another related difference is the performers' ability to remain engaged in deliberate practice. Experts can stay engaged (focused) for more, whereas others don't. For shooters, deliberate practice is best associated with dryfiring. The Chinese method supports massive amounts of practice and grossly outweighs any selection advantage.

I wouldn't look for anything more magical than that. Yes, they have a huge talent pool to draw from, but it comes down to giving those who want to succeed the resources and the support to make it happen.

Hope that answers any questions. If you have any more, come to the Canadian Airgun Grand Prix, in Mississauga, Canada (February 13, 14 and 15, 2009) and you can ask me all that you want.

Take care.
Patrick Haynes