Off hand focus on a bull.

[Ryan V]

I shoot Service Rifle; I also have a 22 LR upper (compass lake) for my AR that I shoot from 50 feet to 50 meters.

I have a problem with focus in off hand.

When shooting at a 6 minute bull (I hold 6 o clock with a post) I am shooting to break the shot on a sight picture, not a point. In contrast, I find that when I dry fire at a more specific point (like a white orchard sign 300 yards away that may appear one MOA), I am much more interested in what I am doing, and my trigger control is amazing, my hold is improved too over a bull.

Seems when I aim at a 6 minute aimong black, everything is vaguer, less interesting.

Does this make sense? Any thoughts on how to get the same interest and precision on a bull?

If I posted this on a high power forum I know I would just get blank stares, from what I see here you guys may be able to help.

Thanks,

Ryan V

[2650 Plus]

When you focus on the target with the six oclock hold there is a tendancy to lower the front sight in the rear apperture. amd center the bull in the rear apperture. Should the problem persist, I would consider going to center hold. Optically this removes the non semitrical relationship and may work out for you. In any case keep on shooting as this could also just be a stage you are going through and may correct itself with training. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Ryan V]

Thanks Bill,

Though not sure i effectively got my question out.

Maybe i am the only person with this issue. I will fiture it out.

Ryan

[Oz]

Ryan, I think I know what you're saying. I dry fire my pistol out a window in my office while I'm on the phone. There's no concern about where the sight picture is in relationship to a target and my alignment and trigger pull is nothing short of perfection.

As soon as I put a target in front of that, dry-firing for me is completely different. I've determined that my mind is now taking on a most serious task, lining up my perfect sight picture on the target and keeping everything in place. In essence, the work my brain is doing is probably 3x as much. It's a game changer.

For that reason, I'm wondering if there's a point when dry-firing against a blank wall is pointless. It appears that I can do it flawlessly without end. Dry-fire against a target (or a dime that I've blackened with a marker taped to my wall 7 feet away) is where some real work comes into play for me.

Dunno if that's more in line with your thoughts. I figure I'd take a stab at it.

Oz

[Ryan V]

Thanks Oz,

I just learned about the blank target thing, have not tried it, but will.

if i can just see a piece of broken clay pigeon on the 100 yard berm, i can bring the post to the mark and break a perfect shot. Its interesting to me and i am where i need to be in my head.

Then put up a 6 inch bull at 100 yards, and i don't have the same drive and interest to hammer a specific point. I feel like i am looking for a sight picture, instead of focusing on a specific point i want to hit.

Its a fine site picture to break on prone and sitting, but off hand i am more effective if i aim at a more specific point.

How can i get the same feeling shooting at the bull as i do a specific point? Thats what i am working on in my own head.

This site has opened up my eyes a bit. I have learned a good bit here. You guys know what i need toknow to go from trying to scratch out high master scores to reallly getting on top of things.

Thanks,

Ryan V

[Philadelphia]

As soon as I put a target in front of that, dry-firing for me is completely different. I've determined that my mind is now taking on a most serious task, lining up my perfect sight picture on the target and keeping everything in place. In essence, the work my brain is doing is probably 3x as much. It's a game changer.

For that reason, I'm wondering if there's a point when dry-firing against a blank wall is pointless. It appears that I can do it flawlessly without end. Dry-fire against a target (or a dime that I've blackened with a marker taped to my wall 7 feet away) is where some real work comes into play for me.

I don't know if I'm veering off topic here but dry firing at a blank wall does serve important purposes (at least for me). It helps to break down the ultimate task of shooting a 10 into bite sized chunks.

Number one, dry firing at a blank wall establishes the muscle/task memory for proper trigger control.

Two, it reinforces front sight focus.

Three (and I just learned this myself from members of this board) -- live firing at a blank target helps build consistent "lift the gun to the same spot" skills (I guess this doesn't apply to dry firing at a blank wall, but I throw it in anyway).

Four, it builds the muscles of lifting and gripping the gun and the trigger finger muscles, to reduce the shakes.

Can also mix in breath control.

Etc.

Once you get all that just perfect, pretty much the only thing left is holding a sight picture on an actual target and shooting the 10.

I think it's just a part of breaking down the shooting process into managable chunks to be individually mastered to the best level of perfection one can achieve. Put all the individual parts having been mastered back together and you get better performance without an overwhelming conscious effort requirement.

(yeah, I know, if it were only that easy to actually do ;) )

[ghilt]

OZ brings up a good point which is apparent to me and prehaps others. 80% of my dry firing is done against a blank wall -alignment, letoff and follow-through sure looks good but, put the destracting bull up there and everything goes to hell! During live firing, it takes a while to get in that automatic trigger release and the resulting surprise let-off ( sometimes never get there!). Dry firing doesn't seem to help in that aspect (automatic release).
Live fire results in 8's or better at the target. Tried the trick of live fire against a blank target - "group" was all over the place! Oh where's my distraction!! NPA not too strong?
Any suggestions for exercises to help the situation?

[Philadelphia]

OZ brings up a good point which is apparent to me and prehaps others. 80% of my dry firing is done against a blank wall -alignment, letoff and follow-through sure looks good but, put the destracting bull up there and everything goes to hell! During live firing, it takes a while to get in that automatic trigger release and the resulting surprise let-off ( sometimes never get there!). Dry firing doesn't seem to help in that aspect (automatic release).
Live fire results in 8's or better at the target. Tried the trick of live fire against a blank target - "group" was all over the place! Oh where's my distraction!! NPA not too strong?
Any suggestions for exercises to help the situation?

Until the real experts provide some answers, here's a somewhat bizarre exercise from a novice . . .

Raise the gun and let the sights settle as usual. Start applying pressure to the trigger. Close your eyes and wait a second. Open your eyes and ensure that the sights are still pretty close to where they were. If not, adjust what you need to in order to have the sights centered where you were. Repeat as necessary until things hang in there pretty close. (this is what I now do to establish NPA -- what I was taught, which was to raise the gun with eyes closed and see where the hand wants to be, never worked very well for me).

Now raise the gun and align the sights, start applying pressure and close your eyes just a moment before the shot breaks -- remain fully aware and sense as much as you can of the feel of everything you are doing and everything that is happening. The shot will hit at or pretty close to wherever you were pointed. Do this several times and see how you group.

Now allow your eyes to remain closed for more than just a moment before each shot breaks. Again, remain fully aware of everything you can sense. Each finger. Each muscle. From the top of your head down your neck out your shoulders out to the tips of your fingers down your legs and out to the tips of your toes, is everything as it should be? Take several shots and see how you group (you might be surprised how well you can do without even looking if you just feel).

Try it as just an exercise and see if it helps to give you information about what you are really doing, without the distraction of visually processing.

For example, I had discovered that I relax my grip ever so slightly as the shot breaks which would send my shots ever so slightly low. Unknowingly, I was doing it consistently enough during each string that I obviously had adjusted my sights for it but it was hard to determine why my groups would rise or sink slightly on different strings or on different days. I could not see it happen in the sights, but I could feel it when I closed my eyes and let the shots break.

Anyway, it's a fun exercise -- something different to try and hopefully it gives you some information as to why the aiming process is distracting you.

[ghilt2]

Great suggestion! As one who belongs to the school of “throw up the gun, close eyes, wiggle about, open them up to see where its pointing then shift the feet” It certainly suggests the epitomly of “Know Thyself "(internally at least).
I’ll certainly try it.
The second step:
"The shot will hit at or pretty close to wherever you were pointed. Do this several times and see how you group".
Requires a great “leap of faith”! Using Edelmann 3”X3” target, small bullet catcher and light fence backstop between me and my neighbor‘s plate glass window, I don’t I’ll make it.
Would like to know what sized group might be expected

[Philadelphia]

. . . Requires a great “leap of faith”! Using Edelmann 3”X3” target, small bullet catcher and light fence backstop between me and my neighbor‘s plate glass window, I don’t I’ll make it.
Would like to know what sized group might be expected

Ha ha -- I don't think I would try it there either ;)

I shoot at 50' so scale accordingly. Yes, make sure everything down range can take a hit. Glass windows over a fence don't qualify ;). As far as expected groups, if you close your eyes just before you break the shot and just feel it (good for getting warmed up), if you are doing right it will usually hit very close to where you were pointed (like almost exactly). If it does not, examine why not as there is something your body wants to unconsciously do that what you see stops you from doing. The theory being that if you can get a conscious awareness of exactly what it is, you can stop doing it.

Holding still with eyes closed for about a full second before breaking the shot and once you get dialed in, hitting a 3" X 3" area almost all the time is doing well (in my humble opinion). This corresponds well enough with the black on a 50' pistol target. I'd like to get better at it than that but no joy so far.

Doing something without looking should help to bring what the body is actually doing to a more conscious level by eliminating the distraction of visual processing and the subconscious corrections.

It might be a silly exercise but it's fun and something to try (at a safe place of course). I don't think doing it can hurt scores so if you don't mind possibly wasting some time, try to get good at it and see if it helps.