I'm not sure if the news has reached you all or not, but the 50 yard match has been dropped from the prone phase at Perry. Each day will be a 1200 agg (dewar, 100, meter).
The change was driven by the staff. A few of the reasons which have reached my ears were to shorten the prone days, cut costs, and to make sure the awards script is ready in time. I have never talked to a volunteer about the day length, but I have never heard anyone complain. I don't know enough to comment on cutting costs, but entry fees should be reduced because of this. I understand the script was a little late this year and delayed the ceremony by roughly 10 minutes. With the new computerized scoring that greatly reduced scoring times, I doubt it would be difficult for a program to be written to take the software output and use it to automatically generate a script, we all know it hardly changes year to year.
There isn't anything we can do about changing this year's Perry, but we can make a strong push for changing this for next year by doing 2 things:
1. Fill out the suggestion form in your packet. These are reviewed and changes have taken place because of what is written on them.
2. Write a letter and send it to the Chair and Secretary of the Smallbore Committee. The letters will be reviewed at their next meeting.
See you out there.
50 Yard match dropped at Perry
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
This is why people are not going to Camp Perry in the numbers that they used to. Last year there was a change to go back to the easy targets and even though everyone complained nothing was done. The only thing that happened is that all the scores were artificially inflated so everyone would feel better about themselves. Please don't get me wrong, self-esteem is important in shooting but acquiring a false sense will only harm a shooter when they shoot an international target and the score is not what they expected. Now they are changing a course of fire that has been around for a while for convenience. They are certainly free to do as they like but to me this seems like a poor choice. Just my opinion.
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Guest
I have only shot 3P at Perry, so I really shouldn't comment on the prone championship (but I will anyway!)
The prone championship is too long and too expensive. Big entry fees, 640 shots (plus sighters, so figure $250 for ammo) over four days (plus travel time/costs: explain that to the family) makes it impossible for me to even consider shooting the prone championship. It would take more than just this to increase participation.
I'd suggest something more on the order of the 3P championship: two firing days, 160 shots/day, on a more discriminating target than currently used -- Perhaps something like Metric Prone. I appreciate the tradition of Perry, but it seems like this match needs to evolve to recognize the demands on modern shooters.
Just my two cents . . .
The prone championship is too long and too expensive. Big entry fees, 640 shots (plus sighters, so figure $250 for ammo) over four days (plus travel time/costs: explain that to the family) makes it impossible for me to even consider shooting the prone championship. It would take more than just this to increase participation.
I'd suggest something more on the order of the 3P championship: two firing days, 160 shots/day, on a more discriminating target than currently used -- Perhaps something like Metric Prone. I appreciate the tradition of Perry, but it seems like this match needs to evolve to recognize the demands on modern shooters.
Just my two cents . . .
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isuguncoach
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50 yd match
Soupy,
Having volunteered in scoring, I have to raise another question. What was gained by the time and expense of shooting the 50 yd match? There is no or very little separation of shooters in the 50 yd match. All of the top half of the shooters may be separated by "a handful of points". All of the time, effort and ammunition expense doesn't seem to be worth it at a National Match. If a World Cup or Olympic Gold medal can be decided over 60 shots and a final, why add 20, 40 or 80 shots at the National Match, and get no separation in the scores posted.
Joe
Having volunteered in scoring, I have to raise another question. What was gained by the time and expense of shooting the 50 yd match? There is no or very little separation of shooters in the 50 yd match. All of the top half of the shooters may be separated by "a handful of points". All of the time, effort and ammunition expense doesn't seem to be worth it at a National Match. If a World Cup or Olympic Gold medal can be decided over 60 shots and a final, why add 20, 40 or 80 shots at the National Match, and get no separation in the scores posted.
Joe
If you asked the shooters at Perry to get in position, sight in, and shoot one 10, 90% of them would be able to. If you asked for 10 10s, 89% would be able to do it. If you asked for 100 10s, 60% would. Then ask for 640 10s, and no one would do it, it's never been done at Perry.
Part of conventional prone that is overlooked is that in the short run, it's pretty darn easy. No one bats an eye at a clean target at any distance, just as you said. For the cream of the crop to rise to the top, true, we could shoot a 2 day match and be done with it. But I've seen people have the 2 best days of their life and win a 3200. I suppose that would open up who could win Perry, but isn't the idea that the best shooter wins?
The 3P target change can't be seen as a parallel to the prone change. Perry used to be 4P on the A-23 back in the day, it was a return to tradition. That target change was driven by a large number of letter received saying, "Hey, I'll come back to shoot 3P at Perry if it goes back to the conventional target" (see, they do read those things). The prone change moves away from a course of fire that hasn't changed in many decades. As much as tradition can hinder progress, lack of tradition can hinder loyalty.
In addition, though somewhat of a tangent, a new set of national records was created to accommodate the new course of fire. I feel this is diluting their worth. I personally hold 18 national records in prone. As much as every one of those cannot really be combined to reduce the number, if we keep adding to the list, what does it matter.
You are also correct, World Cups and Olympics are decided in one day. USAS Nationals in 2 days. Perry 3P in 2 days. I can't think of any disputed National Champions in any of these matches. In the end, the better shooter will win the match.
What is lost by doing this? If you look at the standings for 3P over the past 2 years, they're pretty much the same. If we went to a 2 day prone Perry, I bet the standings would also hardly change. If we arbitrarily chose a course of fire, the standings would still change very little. But what would we brag about for winning the Arbitrary National Shooting Championship. Ability creates champions, champions win championships, and tradition makes it all mean something.
Part of conventional prone that is overlooked is that in the short run, it's pretty darn easy. No one bats an eye at a clean target at any distance, just as you said. For the cream of the crop to rise to the top, true, we could shoot a 2 day match and be done with it. But I've seen people have the 2 best days of their life and win a 3200. I suppose that would open up who could win Perry, but isn't the idea that the best shooter wins?
The 3P target change can't be seen as a parallel to the prone change. Perry used to be 4P on the A-23 back in the day, it was a return to tradition. That target change was driven by a large number of letter received saying, "Hey, I'll come back to shoot 3P at Perry if it goes back to the conventional target" (see, they do read those things). The prone change moves away from a course of fire that hasn't changed in many decades. As much as tradition can hinder progress, lack of tradition can hinder loyalty.
In addition, though somewhat of a tangent, a new set of national records was created to accommodate the new course of fire. I feel this is diluting their worth. I personally hold 18 national records in prone. As much as every one of those cannot really be combined to reduce the number, if we keep adding to the list, what does it matter.
You are also correct, World Cups and Olympics are decided in one day. USAS Nationals in 2 days. Perry 3P in 2 days. I can't think of any disputed National Champions in any of these matches. In the end, the better shooter will win the match.
What is lost by doing this? If you look at the standings for 3P over the past 2 years, they're pretty much the same. If we went to a 2 day prone Perry, I bet the standings would also hardly change. If we arbitrarily chose a course of fire, the standings would still change very little. But what would we brag about for winning the Arbitrary National Shooting Championship. Ability creates champions, champions win championships, and tradition makes it all mean something.
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1813benny
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This change was rammed through by the NRA for one simple reason....elimination of smallbore at Camp Perry. It's all about money - smallbore costs the most with the lowest attendance.Anonymous wrote:I have only shot 3P at Perry, so I really shouldn't comment on the prone championship (but I will anyway!)
The prone championship is too long and too expensive. Big entry fees, 640 shots (plus sighters, so figure $250 for ammo) over four days (plus travel time/costs: explain that to the family) makes it impossible for me to even consider shooting the prone championship. It would take more than just this to increase participation.
I'd suggest something more on the order of the 3P championship: two firing days, 160 shots/day, on a more discriminating target than currently used -- Perhaps something like Metric Prone. I appreciate the tradition of Perry, but it seems like this match needs to evolve to recognize the demands on modern shooters.
Just my two cents . . .
If entry fees were an issue, then the Mid-Atlantic 6400 in Pennsylvania would be booked solid, as entry fees are only $150 and over 50% goes back to the shooters.
As for the individual cost to the shooter and work/family/vacation commitments for the "modern" shooter.... that is a very poor arguement for this change. Like all of these issues were not the same 10/20/30 years ago. My family is single-income and we make this work...it's not cheap, but it can be done if you want to participate.
Either you make the commitment to shoot prone or you don't. It's that simple.
Smallbore is the only phase that requires all of the volunteers, seperate scoring staff, etc. that all adds to the cost of the matches.
I wrote about 2 pages regarding what I think of this change, but I have deleted it all as I given up any hope for a change back to the original 6400 course of fire. Anyone who thinks that the NRA will actually listen to competitor's letters is foolish....like they care about a segment of the membership that is less than 5% and costs them a pile of money.
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TomN
I used to coordinate the smallbore program for the Wisconsin Rifle & Pistol Association and I have been playing the smallbore game for 30+ years, so here is the view from my perspective. I think smallbore has to change or it will die. Here is an illustration: The State Indoor Smallbore Rifle Championship has been held for at least 50 years. There is a champions traveling trophy, and each year the winner has his/her name engraved along with the winning score. The course of fire has changed so many times that even the oldest shooters can't definitively say what the earliest course was. In my competitive lifetime, it has been 4P (20 shots each in prone. sitting and standing with iron sights followed by 20 shots each in prone, kneeling and standing with any sights); 4P (10 shots in each position with irons followed by 20 shots in each position with any sights); 3P (a half-course of irons followed by a half-course with any sights); and currently the championship is 3P, 40 shots in each position with any sights. All these changes were made with input from the shooters, to accomodate both newer shooters who rarely shoot the sitting position and older shooters who have a hard time firing with iron sights. There was always some belly-aching when a change had to be made, but the bottom line is that the championship goes on and participation has held fairly steady. I'm a bit concerned that the target change coming in 2010 (A36 target is going away and the new target is more difficult) will cause some of the older shooters to drop out, but I don't think we will lose many. But I'm digressing here, so back to the topic at hand.
A championship tournament needs to have enough shots on a discriminating enough target to honestly select a champion. It must also be accessable enough to have enough participants to for the championship to mean something. Excessively restrictive entry requirments, or fees, or courses of fire that cause many shooters to stay home, do not serve anyone well. Believe me, I understand tradition: I've lived it. But I'd rather have a live match than a dead trophy. If this is what's required to keep smallbore going, then let's do it.
BTW: For Benny, it's not as easy as you suggest, making the committment to shoot or not. When I had a wife in college and two kids in daycare, I was lucky to have money for economy ammo and club fees, and time to shoot once or twice a month. The kids don't need as much time now and my sweetheart is out of college and working, and I have more resources to shoot. So I, too, know what it's like to have to balance many demands and I fault no one for the choice they make.
A championship tournament needs to have enough shots on a discriminating enough target to honestly select a champion. It must also be accessable enough to have enough participants to for the championship to mean something. Excessively restrictive entry requirments, or fees, or courses of fire that cause many shooters to stay home, do not serve anyone well. Believe me, I understand tradition: I've lived it. But I'd rather have a live match than a dead trophy. If this is what's required to keep smallbore going, then let's do it.
BTW: For Benny, it's not as easy as you suggest, making the committment to shoot or not. When I had a wife in college and two kids in daycare, I was lucky to have money for economy ammo and club fees, and time to shoot once or twice a month. The kids don't need as much time now and my sweetheart is out of college and working, and I have more resources to shoot. So I, too, know what it's like to have to balance many demands and I fault no one for the choice they make.
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1813benny
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Let me provide some clarification on my position. I am the head of a single income family with three kids, with two of them 5 or under. My wife has not worked in over 6 years, so I fully understand the financial challenges that can face many shooters, even if they have 2 incomes under one roof.TomN wrote:BTW: For Benny, it's not as easy as you suggest, making the committment to shoot or not. When I had a wife in college and two kids in daycare, I was lucky to have money for economy ammo and club fees, and time to shoot once or twice a month. The kids don't need as much time now and my sweetheart is out of college and working, and I have more resources to shoot. So I, too, know what it's like to have to balance many demands and I fault no one for the choice they make.
I live the financial and time challenges every day of the week. Since Camp Perry last year, the first time that I had time to pick up a rifle was on February 7th...and the next time will be at least another month away. I also make the commitment to coach a Jr. Rifle team in my very limited spare time when I should be training. But by the time I am done coaching, the last thing that I feel like is starting to train at 10pm for a few hours and then driving a 1/2 hour home only to get up to be at work by 7am the next morning. I make the time commitment to give back to the sport and keep it alive...unlike many former smallbore shooters.
For the past several years, I have only competed in about 4 or 5 matches per year with the same number of practice sessions. Would I like to have the money and time to shoot more - yes, but like many others in the same position, I don't.
I don't fault anyone's choices in their own lives, but I stand by my statement.....You either make the sacrifices to shoot or you don't.
As for the sport changing, that may in fact be a true statement. If that is what the NRA truely believes, then at least be open, honest and up front about it with the competitors before making significant changes behind their backs.
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Freepistol
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Since I used to be a smallbore rifle competitor and switched to international pistol, I guess I'll throw in my story.
I started shooting smallbore rifle position in 1973 when I was 20. I soon found out there were more prone matches in PA than position so I migrated to outdoor prone.
It was great fun in the 70s when we had two relays on 40 point ranges. It took me one year to get to conventional outdoor position master, but several years to make prone master. With two relays at the prone matches, I was able to watch the good shooters and check out their equipment. It also helped me {lacking equipment} that most of them would prefer to leave their mat and wind gauge for me to use.
When we had our first kid in 1983, money got tight and I never made it to Perry. I didn't shoot at all until 1986. The first match I shot, my wife really complained about watching the kids all day while I had fun shooting. She was used to coming to the matches and gabbing all day with the other wives.
I decided it would be better if I shot free pistol as the match was only a couple of hours and the slow fire was most like prone. What I didn't realize was how hard it would be to get used to not forcing that bullet into the center of the target like I needed to do at prone matches
I have many good memories from my prone days. I still vividly remember how much the cross hairs on the 20x scope were bouncing when I shot the last 100 yard taget for my first 1600. I also remember shooting my second one needing a good x count to win the aggregate and luckily came through. I was frustrated when I finished 13th twice in the PA state iron sight aggregate and missed the state team competition. Then I finished 13th in the Sterbutzel Memorial at Dauphin to win that trophy and 13th didn't seem so bad.
It was very rewarding to finally make the state team and finish 3rd in country. There are other good memories of close results and good friends, but I don't want to bore you any more. Suffice it to say, I enjoyed the sport and the history and didn't really want to leave, but circumstances change our lives. Now I am making new pistol shootin' friends.
Ben
I started shooting smallbore rifle position in 1973 when I was 20. I soon found out there were more prone matches in PA than position so I migrated to outdoor prone.
It was great fun in the 70s when we had two relays on 40 point ranges. It took me one year to get to conventional outdoor position master, but several years to make prone master. With two relays at the prone matches, I was able to watch the good shooters and check out their equipment. It also helped me {lacking equipment} that most of them would prefer to leave their mat and wind gauge for me to use.
When we had our first kid in 1983, money got tight and I never made it to Perry. I didn't shoot at all until 1986. The first match I shot, my wife really complained about watching the kids all day while I had fun shooting. She was used to coming to the matches and gabbing all day with the other wives.
I decided it would be better if I shot free pistol as the match was only a couple of hours and the slow fire was most like prone. What I didn't realize was how hard it would be to get used to not forcing that bullet into the center of the target like I needed to do at prone matches
I have many good memories from my prone days. I still vividly remember how much the cross hairs on the 20x scope were bouncing when I shot the last 100 yard taget for my first 1600. I also remember shooting my second one needing a good x count to win the aggregate and luckily came through. I was frustrated when I finished 13th twice in the PA state iron sight aggregate and missed the state team competition. Then I finished 13th in the Sterbutzel Memorial at Dauphin to win that trophy and 13th didn't seem so bad.
It was very rewarding to finally make the state team and finish 3rd in country. There are other good memories of close results and good friends, but I don't want to bore you any more. Suffice it to say, I enjoyed the sport and the history and didn't really want to leave, but circumstances change our lives. Now I am making new pistol shootin' friends.
Ben
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TomN
It's good to have this discussion and see folks posting their experience, but perhaps we do need to come back to what seems to be to be the original thread: Is this change good for smallbore or not? One guest believes still more changes are necessary, others believe tradition should carry the day. It seems understood but unspoken that NRA has, in recent years, made major changes to the course of fire at Camp Perry with only minimal input from the smallbore community.
From my perspective, the change is probably a net positive. The 6400 course seems to be anachronistic and may be keeping shooters away. Two firing days would seem to be sufficient. But before things go that far, I really would like to see more communication from NRA. I get the Shooting Sports USA magazine every month, but until this thread appeared in TargetTalk, I had heard nothing.
From my perspective, the change is probably a net positive. The 6400 course seems to be anachronistic and may be keeping shooters away. Two firing days would seem to be sufficient. But before things go that far, I really would like to see more communication from NRA. I get the Shooting Sports USA magazine every month, but until this thread appeared in TargetTalk, I had heard nothing.
The reduction in numbers that you are suffering at Camp Perry, is mirrored on the other side of the pond.
In the UK, the Scottish meeting, and Bisley smallbore week have seen considerable reductions in competitors. And the Scottish meeting in particular is running at a loss, with Bisley close behind. The NSRA are looking at changing the meetings, perhaps cancelling the Scottish meeting completely.
It seems that fewer people are willing to spend the best part of a week in a field, exposed to the elements.
On the other hand, some weekend matches, the Scottish, and the British 50 metre championships, shot respectively at Aberdeen and Bisley, over a weekend, have been over subscribed in recent years.
In the UK, the Scottish meeting, and Bisley smallbore week have seen considerable reductions in competitors. And the Scottish meeting in particular is running at a loss, with Bisley close behind. The NSRA are looking at changing the meetings, perhaps cancelling the Scottish meeting completely.
It seems that fewer people are willing to spend the best part of a week in a field, exposed to the elements.
On the other hand, some weekend matches, the Scottish, and the British 50 metre championships, shot respectively at Aberdeen and Bisley, over a weekend, have been over subscribed in recent years.
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Guest
FWIW, NRA sends out an electronic newsletter periodically. This was posted inthe most recent edition, sent out today, 3-2-09.
What’s Ahead For NRA Smallbore & Air Rifle?
NRA Distinguished Smallbore Rifleman
The NRA Distinguished Smallbore Rifleman program, established in 1965, has added a new pin, patch, and certificate for those distinguished shooters who have won both Prone and Position Distinguished. The new award will be available by the summer. Shooters who attend the National Championships can stop by the NRA Trophy Building and claim their awards. Other Double Distinguished winners will receive their Double Distinguished awards later this year by mail.
2009 Camp Perry
New Facility -- Those of you who have attended the National Championships, Camp Perry, will immediately notice a major renovation. All of the old buildings from, but not including, the Statistical Office were raised to make way for a new and larger facility. The new building will house the NRA Scoring, Target Display, Official Bulletin Board, and Challenge Offices. The new facility is planned to be operational in time for the 2009 championships.
All Conventional Targets – The NRA Smallbore Committee at their annual meeting voted to use NRA Conventional Targets for all matches including the National Team Matches. Only the Dewar International Postal Team and the Whistler Boy Team matches will continue to use the A-50/A-51 targets.
50 Yard match – The 50 Yard Match will no longer be a part of the 2009 National Prone Championships. This action was made by the Smallbore Committee due to the number of events and length of time it takes to shoot the National Prone matches. Adding another day to the matches is not possible due to the schedule of the other championships. This move will save money for the competitors in ammunition costs (about 500 rounds).
Challenge Period – Competitors are now able to view their targets after they are scored and challenge the results on the spot, if necessary. Therefore, a new challenge period is established for the National Smallbore Championships. When scored targets are displayer by 5:00 p.m. competitors will have until 6:00 p.m. to view and challenge their scores.
Awards Ceremony -- Awards ceremonies will now start at 8:00 p.m. vice 9:00 p.m.
National Match Fees – Fees for the 2009 National Smallbore Rifle Prone Matches will be reduced. The exact amount of the reduction has not been determined and the fee structure should be released by the end of March.
Mentor Match -- The time limits for the Mentor Match will be extended to 30 minutes per stage.
Metric National Championship – The Smallbore Committee voted to conduct a Metric National Championship in 2010.
Planning is already underway and two locations are under consideration. The Championship dates are yet to be finalized, but current thinking is to hold the Metric Championship about a week prior to the National Smallbore Championships, Camp Perry, OH to allow those competitors to compete in both Championships.
Right now the plan is to hold the Metric Championship to four days (2 days for position and two days for prone) and make the team matches a “Paper Match” format to conserve time. We plan to announce the Metric Championship in July at Camp Perry when more details are available.
Look For Even More 2009 NRA Smallbore & Air Rifle News In The April, 2009 Issue of E-News…
What’s Ahead For NRA Smallbore & Air Rifle?
NRA Distinguished Smallbore Rifleman
The NRA Distinguished Smallbore Rifleman program, established in 1965, has added a new pin, patch, and certificate for those distinguished shooters who have won both Prone and Position Distinguished. The new award will be available by the summer. Shooters who attend the National Championships can stop by the NRA Trophy Building and claim their awards. Other Double Distinguished winners will receive their Double Distinguished awards later this year by mail.
2009 Camp Perry
New Facility -- Those of you who have attended the National Championships, Camp Perry, will immediately notice a major renovation. All of the old buildings from, but not including, the Statistical Office were raised to make way for a new and larger facility. The new building will house the NRA Scoring, Target Display, Official Bulletin Board, and Challenge Offices. The new facility is planned to be operational in time for the 2009 championships.
All Conventional Targets – The NRA Smallbore Committee at their annual meeting voted to use NRA Conventional Targets for all matches including the National Team Matches. Only the Dewar International Postal Team and the Whistler Boy Team matches will continue to use the A-50/A-51 targets.
50 Yard match – The 50 Yard Match will no longer be a part of the 2009 National Prone Championships. This action was made by the Smallbore Committee due to the number of events and length of time it takes to shoot the National Prone matches. Adding another day to the matches is not possible due to the schedule of the other championships. This move will save money for the competitors in ammunition costs (about 500 rounds).
Challenge Period – Competitors are now able to view their targets after they are scored and challenge the results on the spot, if necessary. Therefore, a new challenge period is established for the National Smallbore Championships. When scored targets are displayer by 5:00 p.m. competitors will have until 6:00 p.m. to view and challenge their scores.
Awards Ceremony -- Awards ceremonies will now start at 8:00 p.m. vice 9:00 p.m.
National Match Fees – Fees for the 2009 National Smallbore Rifle Prone Matches will be reduced. The exact amount of the reduction has not been determined and the fee structure should be released by the end of March.
Mentor Match -- The time limits for the Mentor Match will be extended to 30 minutes per stage.
Metric National Championship – The Smallbore Committee voted to conduct a Metric National Championship in 2010.
Planning is already underway and two locations are under consideration. The Championship dates are yet to be finalized, but current thinking is to hold the Metric Championship about a week prior to the National Smallbore Championships, Camp Perry, OH to allow those competitors to compete in both Championships.
Right now the plan is to hold the Metric Championship to four days (2 days for position and two days for prone) and make the team matches a “Paper Match” format to conserve time. We plan to announce the Metric Championship in July at Camp Perry when more details are available.
Look For Even More 2009 NRA Smallbore & Air Rifle News In The April, 2009 Issue of E-News…
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Steve Swartz as guest
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Freepistol
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Guest
What are "Metric" matches? Is this something like what was once called the English Match at the Olympics? Isn't there a 50 meter phase at Camp Perry now? Why does ammo have more effect in these matches than in standard matches? Forgive the questions of a plinker, but this is becoming quite confusing.
Metric matches use 2 targets, the ISU 50m target, usually reduced for 50 yards, and a 300m target reduced to 100 yards.
Basically, in conventional, the ten ring is about the size of a nickel at 50 yards and 2in at 100 yards. In metric, the ten ring is 1cm at 50 and about 1in at 100.
I like to use golf to describe this. A metric match is like a golf tournament. There are enough bogeys and birdies to catch up to someone if you are behind. A conventional match is like a golf tournament where you can only bogey, not birdie. So you need the person ahead of you to mess up in order to catch them.
Basically, in conventional, the ten ring is about the size of a nickel at 50 yards and 2in at 100 yards. In metric, the ten ring is 1cm at 50 and about 1in at 100.
I like to use golf to describe this. A metric match is like a golf tournament. There are enough bogeys and birdies to catch up to someone if you are behind. A conventional match is like a golf tournament where you can only bogey, not birdie. So you need the person ahead of you to mess up in order to catch them.
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Guest
Thanks, Soupy44. I think I'm starting to understand. In a metric match everybody drops some points, so any given classification, like the Master class, would have an average score with some shooters above and some below that average. That's the birdie/bogey analogy. In conventional matches everybody shoots perfect scores and the match is decided by X-count, so someone could shoot a perfect score with few Xs and win while another shooter could lose a single point but have many Xs and lose. Pretty much if you drop a point, you lose unless the other shooter screws up.
Isn't metric the preferred way to go, then? It seems like it rewards placing most of your shots closer to the center. Or are these metric targets so difficult that the inherent accuracy of the rifle/ammo outweighs the performance of the individual? But if a match is decided on X-count, is the outcome any different? Maybe I'm not understanding as well as I thought!
Isn't metric the preferred way to go, then? It seems like it rewards placing most of your shots closer to the center. Or are these metric targets so difficult that the inherent accuracy of the rifle/ammo outweighs the performance of the individual? But if a match is decided on X-count, is the outcome any different? Maybe I'm not understanding as well as I thought!
In conventional, you reach a point where you aren't too happy with 10s, and you're really shooting for Xs.
Does it happen where someone shoots a massive amount of Xs, drop a few points, and don't win because of it, yes. But the vast majority of the time, that is not the case. If you're looking for a cross over number, the X ring of the conventional target is roughly the size of the 10 ring on metric.
The master percentage for conventional is 99.5% while metric's is 95%.
In the end, the better shooter wins. Once you reach a certain level in shooting, your mentality makes what target is down there barely matter.
Does it happen where someone shoots a massive amount of Xs, drop a few points, and don't win because of it, yes. But the vast majority of the time, that is not the case. If you're looking for a cross over number, the X ring of the conventional target is roughly the size of the 10 ring on metric.
The master percentage for conventional is 99.5% while metric's is 95%.
In the end, the better shooter wins. Once you reach a certain level in shooting, your mentality makes what target is down there barely matter.
Last edited by Soupy44 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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1813benny
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yeah but.....
The topic of a Conventional "Metric" type of national match in 2010 is off topic. Interesting, but not the topic of the thread.
Back to the subject at hand...the less then honest way that the NRA changed the course of fire w/ no input from shooters.
Justification...let's see....um........nothing other than some feel good fluff about not having to add to the schedule. Puhleezze....why not drop some of the "fluff" matches such as the Made In America match? That will make the day shorter and only impact less than 30 shooters total.
I am not averse to change. I just want it to be an open and honest discussion. Most shooters only heard about this potential change less than 1 week before the Smallbore Committee was meeting to vote.
If this was an actual topic that was discussed in length at the smallbore meeting at Camp Perry, then this would have been discussed for weeks...not days...before the vote.
What makes me madder than he** is the way this was done. Shooters are intelligent people - give us a chance to give input on possible changes and/or improvements and the national matches can be made better....but also be ready to be taken to the wood shed when you pee down our backs an try to tell us that it is raining.
Time for those involved to "man up", and cut out the BS that you are being so good to us by saving a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition and a few pieces of paper. Tell us that the real reason was simply to make the Nationals easier for the NRA staff and to start the process to eliminate smallbore.
Back to the subject at hand...the less then honest way that the NRA changed the course of fire w/ no input from shooters.
Justification...let's see....um........nothing other than some feel good fluff about not having to add to the schedule. Puhleezze....why not drop some of the "fluff" matches such as the Made In America match? That will make the day shorter and only impact less than 30 shooters total.
I am not averse to change. I just want it to be an open and honest discussion. Most shooters only heard about this potential change less than 1 week before the Smallbore Committee was meeting to vote.
If this was an actual topic that was discussed in length at the smallbore meeting at Camp Perry, then this would have been discussed for weeks...not days...before the vote.
What makes me madder than he** is the way this was done. Shooters are intelligent people - give us a chance to give input on possible changes and/or improvements and the national matches can be made better....but also be ready to be taken to the wood shed when you pee down our backs an try to tell us that it is raining.
Time for those involved to "man up", and cut out the BS that you are being so good to us by saving a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition and a few pieces of paper. Tell us that the real reason was simply to make the Nationals easier for the NRA staff and to start the process to eliminate smallbore.