Question of technique

[stubbicatt]

I received my Rinks grip for my TOZ35M. Beautiful product.

So finally I can feel comfortable shooting the thing.

So far only at 15 yards at the indoor range shooting at bullseye slowfire targets.

What is the secret to vertical shot placement consistency? The windage seems to be fine, but the elevation in my case is easily 7 ring to 7 ring, 12 to 6 o'clock, with windage holding an easy 10. A nice rectangle of shots, if that is what one wants... I don't!

How do I better regulate the vertical placement of the shots? What is a proven technique for this?

HUGE newbie question, but I figure you guys are in the know.

Regards,
Stubb

[guests]

Well, the quick answer (no less truthful because of it) is

- Sight Alignment
- Trigger control

Do you have the U-shaped rear sight?

Are you focusing on the target (point aiming vs. area aiming)?

Are you using a center hold?

Any of those would explain it.

Steve Swartz

[stubbicatt]

Well, the quick answer (no less truthful because of it) is

- Sight Alignment
- Trigger control

Do you have the U-shaped rear sight?

Are you focusing on the target (point aiming vs. area aiming)?

Are you using a center hold?

Any of those would explain it.

Steve Swartz

1) The rear sight has a bunch of different leafs. The one on it now has a square notch. Would the U shaped notch help?

2) Forcing focus on the front sight.

3) Trying a 6 o'clock hold with a sliver of white. -- I've been told to not try for the sliver of white but black on black.

Perhaps it is just practice.

[JamesH]

3) Trying a 6 o'clock hold with a sliver of white. -- I've been told to not try for the sliver of white but black on black.

You need a significant white gap, or the front sight merges with the black.
Or you get a mirage effect and think theres a white sliver when in fact you're well into the black.

It takes time to find a reliable area of aim.

[David Levene]

3) Trying a 6 o'clock hold with a sliver of white. -- I've been told to not try for the sliver of white but black on black.

You need a significant white gap, or the front sight merges with the black.
Or you get a mirage effect and think theres a white sliver when in fact you're well into the black.

It takes time to find a reliable area of aim.

Newcomers to the sport will never understand this concept. They will invariably ask:-

Q Exactly how much white?
A Whatever you are comfortable with, ensuring that the extremes of your aiming area are still in the white.

Q How can I hold the gun still in a "vague" spot?
A You can't. You need to keep the front and rear sights aligned but allow that fixed alignment to move about in an area below the black. DON'T muck up that alignment by poor trigger release.

Q How big should that area be
A As small as dictated by your general fitness and shooting stance.

Q How can I get a high score if I am letting the gun move about in an indeterminate area centred on a vague position.
A Illogical as it may initially seem, it works, and is the way the majority of accomplished ISSF shooters do it. Obviously shooting on the Rapid Fire target requires a slightly different technique as you don't have enough white to aim into.

[RobStubbs]

3) Trying a 6 o'clock hold with a sliver of white. -- I've been told to not try for the sliver of white but black on black.

Perhaps it is just practice.

As others have pointed out you need a fair degree of white between foresight and bull. I think it works out good if you get the amount of white between bull and foresight to be pretty much the same as the amount of white in the 'notches' i.e. either side of the foresight. The brain likes regular patterns so it should be easier to reproduce and get the consistency you're after.

Rob.

[SteveR]

The only thing I can add to the above (as a relative newcomer) is that if after shooting a match I were asked how much white gap I had on a shot I would give two answers:

1. I had exactly x gap
2. I have no idea what gap as I was focusing on the sights.

With point 2 I get generally a lot higher scores.

[Steve Swartz]

Great posts by all.

Actually I would suggest the U shaped notch would make it *more* difficult (obviously not impossible; many top shooters prefer the U) to maintain vertical alignment.

Steve

[2650 Plus]

I dont believe there is anything detrimental about using a center hold. I remind our shooters that the national three gun record of 2680 was set using the center hold . Hershel Anderson would respond to shooters that used some varaiton of six and sub six by asking " Have you shot 2680 yet". The shooter gets very strong feed back settling in the center of the target because any time the bull turns black , eye focus ic clearly wrong. Conversly, using the sub six the shooter may be trapped into silhoueting the frount sight rather than focussing precicely on it and not recognising the problem. I personally use center hold on all courses of fire and am convinced that there are more points to be gained using this hold over any varaition. Try shooting the shot gun sometimes and this certainly dosen't apply. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

I dont believe there is anything detrimental about using a center hold. I remind our shooters that the national three gun record of 2680 was set using the center hold . Hershel Anderson would respond to shooters that used some varaiton of six and sub six by asking " Have you shot 2680 yet". The shooter gets very strong feed back settling in the center of the target because any time the bull turns black , eye focus ic clearly wrong. Conversly, using the sub six the shooter may be trapped into silhoueting the frount sight rather than focussing precicely on it and not recognising the problem. I personally use center hold on all courses of fire and am convinced that there are more points to be gained using this hold over any varaition. Try shooting the shot gun sometimes and this certainly dosen't apply. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Freepistol]

. . . .I remind our shooters that the national three gun record of 2680 was set using the center hold . Hershel Anderson would respond to shooters that used some varaiton of six and sub six by asking " Have you shot 2680 yet". . . . . .Good Shooting Bill Horton

You're killing me, Bill! I changed from center to sub-six and I am having trouble with verticle stringing. I'm still working on where to settle the sights. If I let them go where they want they tend to migrate higher and higher until I am barely below the bull. I have been experimenting with a deep sub six and I like it except for the verticle variance. I added weight to the muzzle to build my muscles and that may contribute to the low shots, but it keeps me away from the black.

I don't aspire for 2680, I only want 560 in free.
Ben

[Muffo]

This may sound stupid but whats 2680

[Freepistol]

Not stupid at all. . . A three gun bullseye match consists of 90 shots .22, 90 center fire, and 90 shots with a .45. Possible score 2700. Hershel shot 2680

[Muffo]

so thats why i dont know it as i dont think its shot in aus

[Ed Hall]

so thats why i dont know it as i dont think its shot in aus

Perhaps not, but an Australian Team has been at our last couple National Championships...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

[Guest]

thats interesting im not sure who our reps would have been as our main shooters mainly specalise in air and free or rapid fire most of them dont shoot anything else. from what i have seen.

[Ed Hall]

thats interesting im not sure who our reps would have been as our main shooters mainly specalise in air and free or rapid fire most of them dont shoot anything else. from what i have seen.

Maybe it was this group:

From the Team results bulletin:
WINNER PC106 S.S.A.A. AUSTRALIA 40 AWARD POINTS
Coach: NO COACH
Captain: RIEMER, GREGORY G. 2911 27x
5706 RIEMER, GREGORY G. 772 10x
5707 ORPHANT, KENNETH C. 710 4x
5710 WALSH, JOHN C. 703 7x
5718 BROWNING, RAY

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things