Effect of ISSF rules/rule changes on the grass roots

[Sparks]

It would only be doable in major comps with electronics or electronic scoring devices. That alienates the 99+% of shooters who do not shoot in these events. Club and smaller comps would have to be scored differently which is therefore not an option.

Rob, you don't need electronics or scoring machines to get decimal scoring, I've done it myself on the fly for a ten-shot finals and with a little practise you can keep up with things.

Besides which point, there's the small matter of breaking ties. Under the new ISSF rules you break on inner tens, then countback. Which means in a club match, held over several days, shooter A on day one and shooter B on day two may need to be tiebroken come the end of the match; in which case you have to go back and rescore all their targets - but what if you already had to gauge one of those 120 shots? Which, if you're all-manual or your scoring machine doesn't do inner ten markings, you probably had to. To say nothing of the normal situation in club matches where targets get returned to the shooters for various reasons (simultaneous entry into postal matches, plotting of groups for training purposes, etc). You either never do that again (which seriously inconveniences shooters and hampers training) or you only return after all tie breaks are handled (which requires all shooters to stay for the entire match, regardless of how far they traveled to shoot, how long the match is, and whether or not you're asking them to make an eight-hour trip back home to get three hours sleep and then go do a full day's work, which is what you'd be asking some of our guys to do).

If you scored by decimals, then the extra load is in the stats office during the scoring. Meaning that the shooters work hard during the detail and so does stats, but afterwards all is okay, you don't wind up being surprised by another hour or two's work at the end, with everyone delayed from getting the results and going home. That is club-unfriendly. And while I'm not saying 'blame ISSF, the traitorous swine!' for things like blinder size changes and the like, I do think there's a serious disconnect between the small clubs on the ground and the ISSF top table (and yes, I know that's quite a gap, and I know that the member federation NGBs are in between and have responsibilities here, and I know there's a fair few small clubs in the 154 countries in ISSF, and I know it'll never be perfect, but dammit, it'd be nice to at least try...)

[Alexander]

I do think there's a serious disconnect between the small clubs on the ground and the ISSF top table (and yes, I know that's quite a gap, and I know that the member federation NGBs are in between and have responsibilities here, and I know there's a fair few small clubs in the 154 countries in ISSF, and I know it'll never be perfect, but dammit, it'd be nice to at least try...)

The sad story of total non-consultation w.r.t. the forthcoming Youth Olympic Games corroborates this.
"We - to ask the athletes? Why should we?"

Alexander

[higginsdj]

I wonder how many archers would argue that they need similar support? 144 compeditive shots a day, 288 in a 2 day event (consecutive days) with gear that can weigh a few kilos and holding upward of 20-25 kg strain across the back at full draw! If you aren't fit or don't have the technique right then you suffer, change or exit the sport. Why should rifle shooting be any different.

It seems to me that the clothing it attempting to equalise the 'physical' part of the compeditors. Is there any other sport that does this?

Cheers

David

[Richard H]

Yes, basically every sport that requires any equipment. I guessed you missed swimming at the last couple of olympics.

[j-team]

[quote="Sparks Which means in a club match, held over several days, shooter A on day one and shooter B on day two may need to be tiebroken come the end of the match; in which case you have to go back and rescore all their targets[/quote]

Thats OK for 10m and 50m where the targets can be found later. What about 25m where the targets are patched over? It means that you have to score every single target for X rings as you go.

[j-team]

I wonder how many archers would argue that they need similar support? 144 compeditive shots a day, 288 in a 2 day event (consecutive days) with gear that can weigh a few kilos and holding upward of 20-25 kg strain across the back at full draw! If you aren't fit or don't have the technique right then you suffer, change or exit the sport. Why should rifle shooting be any different.

It seems to me that the clothing it attempting to equalise the 'physical' part of the compeditors. Is there any other sport that does this?

Cheers

David

With all due respect David. I suggest that you go to your local smallbore range and ask if you can have a go at 50m 3P shooting (don't just fire a few shots, do the whole thing). When you have done this (without special clothing) then come back and comment.

[Soupy44]

I believe all equipment development can be seen as finding ways to make up for lack of physical ability, whether it be endurance, fine motor control, or strength. Our clothes can make up for lack in endurance and fine motor control. At the highest levels, they serve more to prevent injury.

The contoured grips on pistols were designed to make it easier to have the correct grip pressure for each finger. Some pistols I've seen look like you build the grip around your hand and screw your hand in. I doubt it works that way, but I find a strong parallel between those grips and our clothing.

[Spencer]

Which means in a club match, held over several days, shooter A on day one and shooter B on day two may need to be tiebroken come the end of the match; in which case you have to go back and rescore all their targets

Thats OK for 10m and 50m where the targets can be found later. What about 25m where the targets are patched over? It means that you have to score every single target for X rings as you go.

a/ if the club match is shot over two days, why not have a 'local' rule that the x-ring count not be the first step in tie-breaking? In any case, you would not have to score every shot value, only the x-rings.
b/ for 25m, is scoring the x-ring so difficult (particularly at a club match) - after all, we score all the other ring values?

Spencer

[David Levene]

b/ for 25m, is scoring the x-ring so difficult (particularly at a club match) - after all, we score all the other ring values?

We have decided that, for British Pistol Club matches, inners will be called as "X", outers will be called as "10", and they will be recorded as "X" and "/" respectively. We have redesigned our score cards to include spaces to total the inners and are not anticipating any difficulty.

Our AP40/60 and 50m are all shot on electronics so there is no problem there.

[Thomas Monto]

We score inter 10's on all targets, call them an "X".

All shooters shoot finals when it is called for in the program, only the top 8 count.

There has been no problem with ties (same score and "X's") If there were, we just check the scores starting with the last target, etc.

The competitors take their targets with them after the challenge period, so we do not see them again.

Seems to work great, have been doing it this way for 10+ years, never had a problem or complaint
TM

[Richard H]

The only real difficult one will be Air Rifle, considering its probably one of the most likely to generate ties (and most likely responsible for the rule in the first place) this will be difficult if not scored on electronics. On paper which every competition in Canada is shot on it will require gauging every shoot, this will be time consuming then the next question who does one dispute an inner ten considering it will have already been plugged to determine if its an inner. Is there even an inner ten gauge for AR?

[Richard H]

We score inter 10's on all targets, call them an "X".

All shooters shoot finals when it is called for in the program, only the top 8 count.

There has been no problem with ties (same score and "X's") If there were, we just check the scores starting with the last target, etc.

The competitors take their targets with them after the challenge period, so we do not see them again.

Seems to work great, have been doing it this way for 10+ years, never had a problem or complaint
TM

What events? I see no problem with most pistol events.

[Soupy44]

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you score inner tens in air rifle with the inward gauge and the entire dot must be covered. I'm mainly a smallbore shooter, but I'm getting more involved with air, but I have not come across a match that did inner tens for air rifle in a few years.

As for the page of people who have shot 600s in prone, many people underestimate the monkey on your back of the ability to shoot a perfect score. Here in the US, the NRA has metric (kind of international) prone, and conventional prone. The conventional prone 50yard/meter 10 ring is nearly an inch in diameter with the X ring being closer to the 1cm many of you are used to. The whole mentality of the game changes from shooting 10s to not shooting 9s. With 1600 point aggs per day, and most matches being 2 days, perfect scores are not uncommon (though 3200s are becoming quite rare. My parents are the only husband and wife combo to ever shoot perfect 3200s at the same match. I had my first 1600 when I was 19. My last 5 shots were an X followed by 4 tens I really hung out there.

No one can ever completely remove all match pressure from themselves. Adding an extra pressure of "many people around me can shoot a perfect score and for me to be competitive, I need to do the same" adds another element to the game. I doubt any changes will be made until people start missing finals in the Olympics after having shot 600s.

[David Levene]

Is there even an inner ten gauge for AR?

You're going to like this.

ISSF rule 6.3.2.8.4.1 Use of the Air Pistol OUTWARD scoring gauge for scoring Air Rifle Inner tens
If the measuring edge of an Air Pistol Outward scoring gauge does not go outside the 7 ring of an air rifle target then the shot value is an inner ten.

[Richard H]

Like I said at the Grand Prix alone that is 120 targets times say 50 competitors lets say they shoot and average of 40% tens. Thats 120x50=6000x40%=2400 targets to be plugged. A plugged target needs to go through the jury of three so lets be very conservative and give 2 minutes to each plugged target, 2400x3=4800 minutes, this equals 80 hours of scoring, just for air rifle. This is going to be fun.



All these estimates are on the very conservative side. There will be more thab 50 rifle shooters, there will be more than 40% tens shot and it will take more than 2 minutes to plug and score most targets.

[jhmartin]

Scoring Air Rifle with X's (inner 10's) is no harder than using the regular outer plug. Just get the correct one. Only now delegate the inner to only plugging 1 & 2's if you have to. Suggestion: get the AP Outer plug .... no brainer

We've fired a few major matches with over 120 shooters and it took no more time. In fact since we had a small review/training session before the match it was less time. We had targets to the competitors in less than 30 minutes on each relay .... had a firing line of 28 lanes. (Note we did have ROs pulling the targets after each position

You only need 2 people to view the plug .... only if they don't agree do you need to pull a 3rd in

We shoot our Final on the CMP VIS target and hand score with a tenths gauge from (I think???) Precision Shooting Sports in Canada.

We do this so if we have to send targets in for national records, they can run it thru the ORION scoring system.

Our last set we sent in, we were only 0.4 off in our hand versus their electronic scoring. (and that's across all 7 targets - 3x20+F)

It ain't rocket science.

[higginsdj]

With all due respect David. I suggest that you go to your local smallbore range and ask if you can have a go at 50m 3P shooting (don't just fire a few shots, do the whole thing). When you have done this (without special clothing) then come back and comment.

Thats not actually going to prove anything - I could say the same for a novice to go out and shoot a one day FITA for the first time - its going to hurt and most won't get even 1/2 way through it - but over time with physical conditioning and form development they will get through it unscathed.

And for the other comment about swimming - the suits were not for equalisation of the physical but its enhancement (and the suits are no longer allowed - at least here in Australia)

I'm not trying to be arguementative here, my issue is to do with why do we allow for 'things' that enhance the bodies ability to perform a sport. If it is such a problem for the body then why does the sport persist in its current form? Change the Sport to suit the Shooter rather than change the Shooter to suit the sport.

Cheers

David

[Fred.Mannis]

I'm not trying to be arguementative here, my issue is to do with why do we allow for 'things' that enhance the bodies ability to perform a sport. If it is such a problem for the body then why does the sport persist in its current form? Change the Sport to suit the Shooter rather than change the Shooter to suit the sport.

Depends. The equipment needed to play basketball has been, and continues to be, minimal. But the equipment needed to play (American) football continues to increase in complexity and cost. Both sports continue to be played on both amateur and professional levels in (close to) their original forms

[Richard H]

With all due respect David.

I like that phrase it really means with no respect it's like "I don't mean to be rude," but I will.

And for the other comment about swimming - the suits were not for equalisation of the physical but its enhancement (and the suits are no longer allowed - at least here in Australia)

Since when I don't see anything on FINA's web site and I'd think that would be big news. The swimmers that I know and their trainers have never mentioned that the speedo suits are now banned. So you are saying the the Speedo Lzr2 is now banned?

I'm not trying to be arguementative here, my issue is to do with why do we allow for 'things' that enhance the bodies ability to perform a sport. If it is such a problem for the body then why does the sport persist in its current form? Change the Sport to suit the Shooter rather than change the Shooter to suit the sport.

Cheers

David

I'm glad you're not trying ;)

[higginsdj]

Maybe for American Football but other football codes like those played in civilized countries (humorous jibe) the rules of the sport are changed to reduce injury and harm to players rather than adding more protective layers to the players.

Re the speedo suite - I don't know if they are banned - they are just no longer used by the Australian team (that was news here)