My current FAS CF603 centre fire gun has just died and I can't get another one before a competion next week and friend offered his old K-38 to use.
What I would like to know is in comparison to an auto in 32S&W Long what type of points drop can I expect? I shoot 575-580 on ISSF centre fire. Is it possible to shoot just as well with a revolver or to almost the same standard?
Is it possible to adjust the trigger weight up to ensure it will be 1360grams or more as the trigger feels a little light and when I place the trigger weights on it it is between 1000grams and 1360grams.
What is a good accurate but light load for a 38 using hollow base wadcutters?
Many Thanks!
S&W Mod 14-4 K-38
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Re: S&W Mod 14-4 K-38
Why expect your scores to drop?Phillip wrote:My current FAS CF603 centre fire gun has just died and I can't get another one before a competion next week and friend offered his old K-38 to use.
What I would like to know is in comparison to an auto in 32S&W Long what type of points drop can I expect? I shoot 575-580 on ISSF centre fire. Is it possible to shoot just as well with a revolver or to almost the same standard?
Is it possible to adjust the trigger weight up to ensure it will be 1360grams or more as the trigger feels a little light and when I place the trigger weights on it it is between 1000grams and 1360grams.
What is a good accurate but light load for a 38 using hollow base wadcutters?
Many Thanks!
S
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David Levene
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Mike Taylor
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Using a Model 14
The traditional load for a target .38 (revolver or semi-auto) is 148-grain, lead, hollow base, wadcutter bullet, flush seated, and with 2.7 grains of Bullseye powder. Many other loads ( powder and bullet) will work, but this is the long-time favourite.
As David suggests, the rapid fire stage is the challenge. That's because you have to cock the revolver during the seven seconds between target facings. I wouldn't bother to try double action.
Depending upon the grip fitted to the revolver, you may be able to cock the hammer with the thumb of your shooting hand. However, if the grip is the standard Model 14 grip, you might find that both recoil and cocking with the shooting hand thumb disturbs your grip and you will have to regrip the revolver, using your non-shooting hand, between target exposures.
If the revolver grip is an anatomical style, it will likely prevent the gun from shifting during recoil but it might prevent the thumb of your shooting hand from reaching the hammer. Then you must cock the hammer with the thumb of your non-shooting hand. This disturbs your stance/position somewhat as you move your non-shooting hand to the gun and then back to its rest position.
Then there is the question of when to recock after firing the shot: before lowering the gun, or after lowering the gun to the ready position. The latter method is a bit easier to do but it means you have disturbed the sight alignment. The first method allows realigning the sights after cocking but before lowering to the ready position.
The answer? Dry-fire practice! Try both methods to find which works best for you. Seven seconds is enough time to recock and re-align, but you will need to practise to get your confidence.
The trigger on the Model 14 is probably very "crisp" (no perceived trigger motion as you increase pressure on the trigger - just a sudden release). This is likely quite different from the FAS trigger feel! Again, dry-fire practice will get you used to the new feel.
The final issue, trigger let-off weight, might be the most difficult to deal with. From posts on the Bullseye-L forum, I gather that the "correct" way to adjust the trigger weight on a Model 14 (or other S&W revolvers) is by reworking the hammer and sear contact faces - a job for a pistolsmith or a skilled hobbyist. There is a screw that bears against the hammer spring and that can affect trigger weight, but experienced practitioners apparently advise against this approach. Others have suggested placing a piece of firm rubber behind the trigger or adjacent to the hammer spring to provide additional resistance for the trigger to overcome. I have no experience with this. (I was lucky, my Model 14, "out-of-the-box", had a 3-pound trigger.)
So, if you can't get the trigger up to the 1360 grams level, all the other things I have said about cocking are moot. But, with a legal trigger and a week of dry-fire practice, David's pessimism aside, I expect you could shoot at least in the mid to high 560 range.
As David suggests, the rapid fire stage is the challenge. That's because you have to cock the revolver during the seven seconds between target facings. I wouldn't bother to try double action.
Depending upon the grip fitted to the revolver, you may be able to cock the hammer with the thumb of your shooting hand. However, if the grip is the standard Model 14 grip, you might find that both recoil and cocking with the shooting hand thumb disturbs your grip and you will have to regrip the revolver, using your non-shooting hand, between target exposures.
If the revolver grip is an anatomical style, it will likely prevent the gun from shifting during recoil but it might prevent the thumb of your shooting hand from reaching the hammer. Then you must cock the hammer with the thumb of your non-shooting hand. This disturbs your stance/position somewhat as you move your non-shooting hand to the gun and then back to its rest position.
Then there is the question of when to recock after firing the shot: before lowering the gun, or after lowering the gun to the ready position. The latter method is a bit easier to do but it means you have disturbed the sight alignment. The first method allows realigning the sights after cocking but before lowering to the ready position.
The answer? Dry-fire practice! Try both methods to find which works best for you. Seven seconds is enough time to recock and re-align, but you will need to practise to get your confidence.
The trigger on the Model 14 is probably very "crisp" (no perceived trigger motion as you increase pressure on the trigger - just a sudden release). This is likely quite different from the FAS trigger feel! Again, dry-fire practice will get you used to the new feel.
The final issue, trigger let-off weight, might be the most difficult to deal with. From posts on the Bullseye-L forum, I gather that the "correct" way to adjust the trigger weight on a Model 14 (or other S&W revolvers) is by reworking the hammer and sear contact faces - a job for a pistolsmith or a skilled hobbyist. There is a screw that bears against the hammer spring and that can affect trigger weight, but experienced practitioners apparently advise against this approach. Others have suggested placing a piece of firm rubber behind the trigger or adjacent to the hammer spring to provide additional resistance for the trigger to overcome. I have no experience with this. (I was lucky, my Model 14, "out-of-the-box", had a 3-pound trigger.)
So, if you can't get the trigger up to the 1360 grams level, all the other things I have said about cocking are moot. But, with a legal trigger and a week of dry-fire practice, David's pessimism aside, I expect you could shoot at least in the mid to high 560 range.
Re: Using a Model 14
friend
Certainly that you never shot with revolver. Only digging with pistol.
But do not have any distrust until years 70, he was almost not shot with pistols (or was not trusted very).
High results had been reached with K-14 and others.
Weigh the psychological factor, therefore the Russians had always been in first place shooting with revolver.
The pistols had brought more comfort (the shot is not necessary to set shot) and with more resources of regulations of the trigger.
In more, it is alone to to train a little and the results will be very next moreover, to dig forgives more loses in the calipers forgets the weapon and if it concentrates in the technique.
Mike is certain.
Success
Certainly that you never shot with revolver. Only digging with pistol.
But do not have any distrust until years 70, he was almost not shot with pistols (or was not trusted very).
High results had been reached with K-14 and others.
Weigh the psychological factor, therefore the Russians had always been in first place shooting with revolver.
The pistols had brought more comfort (the shot is not necessary to set shot) and with more resources of regulations of the trigger.
In more, it is alone to to train a little and the results will be very next moreover, to dig forgives more loses in the calipers forgets the weapon and if it concentrates in the technique.
Mike is certain.
Success
You should be able to do very nicely with the S&W if you spend a little time practicing. As shaky as I am, I have shot many 99 and some 100 targets in Duel.
Grip – for anatomical one, adjust as usual. If you must use the stock grip, try curling your little finger under the grip for better support.
Cocking- Do not shoot it double action or cock it with your shooting hand. 7 seconds is a long time so you have plenty of time to cock the gun. I cock with the gun in the lowered position, as do all the revolver shooters I know. The idea of cocking before lowering has merit and I may try it next year. I catch the front sight as the gun rises so loss of alignment while cocking never seemed to be much of a problem to me.
Trigger pull – Turn the main spring adjustment screw in. Put a heavier rebound spring in. Anything more should be done by a revolver smith.
For bullets, be sure to use the HBWC and not the DEWC style bullets. You will see a difference in the precision stages.
Larry
Grip – for anatomical one, adjust as usual. If you must use the stock grip, try curling your little finger under the grip for better support.
Cocking- Do not shoot it double action or cock it with your shooting hand. 7 seconds is a long time so you have plenty of time to cock the gun. I cock with the gun in the lowered position, as do all the revolver shooters I know. The idea of cocking before lowering has merit and I may try it next year. I catch the front sight as the gun rises so loss of alignment while cocking never seemed to be much of a problem to me.
Trigger pull – Turn the main spring adjustment screw in. Put a heavier rebound spring in. Anything more should be done by a revolver smith.
For bullets, be sure to use the HBWC and not the DEWC style bullets. You will see a difference in the precision stages.
Larry
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David Levene
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Bob Fleming
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- Location: Hunt County, Texas
In my opinion, the most important factor in success with a new pistol, especially one without trigger position adjustment is finding a good grip and re-train your trigger finger to release without disturbing the sights. Since there is no time to really develop good feel for this new grip and the existing grip is not fit well to your hand I recommend cocking the revolver with the non-shooting hand to avoid disturbing the grip. I reach down and cock the hammer without looking at it. I keep my eyes on the target. Don’t know if that will work for you. The only good way to adjust the trigger weight on a borrowed revolver is by changing springs. The 14-4 came with a heavier trigger so it is fairly safe to assume that someone has fooled with the trigger weight. I hope a good gunsmith did it if they changed the sear angles. Simply opening the pistol to change springs requires a trick to avoid damage. Do not remove the screws and attempt to pry the side plate off! Nearly all real gunsmiths can switch springs quickly, Many local shooters can do this as well.
I use 2.8 grains of Bullseye under a 148g HBWC but You would be better off spending your time dry firing to perfect trigger pull and grip instead of reloading. May be wise to shoot factory match ammo in any borrowed firearm.
I admire your determination to participate in the match.
Bob Fleming
I use 2.8 grains of Bullseye under a 148g HBWC but You would be better off spending your time dry firing to perfect trigger pull and grip instead of reloading. May be wise to shoot factory match ammo in any borrowed firearm.
I admire your determination to participate in the match.
Bob Fleming
All we can say for sure is that the gun is capable of winning scores, as is the shooter. Lack of confidence in the new hardware may make for a disaster, or the new gun effect could give a personal best. We can not say for sure which it will be. It is said that B. Demarest shot his record with a borrowed Toz. I posed the question of inherent advantage of auto over revolver to D. Nygord and D. Young. They felt that there was none for international center fire. Doc does prefer a 32 auto for bullseye.David Levene wrote:It is obvious that few people, if any, agree with me that you will probably not be able to convert to a K gun in a week.
I hope that I am wrong, it would be interesting to know the result.
IMHO anything over 565 will be amazing, but I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
And another thing we can say for sure is that if he doesn't shoot, be it revolver or auto, he can not win.
Larry
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David Levene
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Which is why my first comment on this thread was "If you REALLY cannot fix the 603 then beg, borrow or steal another one (or at least another top quality semi-auto)"funtoz wrote:And another thing we can say for sure is that if he doesn't shoot, be it revolver or auto, he can not win.
I am not saying that extremely high scores cannot be shot with a revolver, of course they can.
What I am saying is that, with only 1 week before the match, the change from a 603 to another top quality semi-auto would be difficult enough. To change to a revolver is extreme.
Shooting a revolver in rapid fire
In the 1950's everyone used a 38 Special revolver in the NRA centerfire matches and some wonderful scores were shot cockinf the hammer SA and delivering 5 shots in 10 seconds. I find that shooting the international CF course with a SA revolver is almost a "snap".
Tony
Tony
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funMOR
The late FAS 603 vs. 38 Spec. WC K-revolver
Your FAS 603 died, Phillip? Like most other 603s eventually will. (Yes, David, we have learned they will).
To which desease did your 603 succomb?
And may I ask what was the mileage? (aprox. number of shots/years in use).
I own and still shoot a FAS 603 myself. It is a little ill, but not deseased yet.
FAS .32 vs K-revolver in .38 wc? Two different worlds. I think Davis L. did put it wright. You will drop out in the rapids. Even if you were a real expert with the wheelgun.
For accuracy, the factory wc fodder is hard to beat ( federal. remington, winchester, geco).
You scores are in the upper class, so you could probably get an importer/gunshop to lend you a .32? Or borrow from someone in your club?
I would recommend the Benelli .32. My second priority is a GSP expert, or an Unique.
I am a dedicated Morini shooter, but the CM 32 is difficult to master for precision.
It is simply too front heavy, making some of your shots hit low.
Hope you will do well in that competition.
To which desease did your 603 succomb?
And may I ask what was the mileage? (aprox. number of shots/years in use).
I own and still shoot a FAS 603 myself. It is a little ill, but not deseased yet.
FAS .32 vs K-revolver in .38 wc? Two different worlds. I think Davis L. did put it wright. You will drop out in the rapids. Even if you were a real expert with the wheelgun.
For accuracy, the factory wc fodder is hard to beat ( federal. remington, winchester, geco).
You scores are in the upper class, so you could probably get an importer/gunshop to lend you a .32? Or borrow from someone in your club?
I would recommend the Benelli .32. My second priority is a GSP expert, or an Unique.
I am a dedicated Morini shooter, but the CM 32 is difficult to master for precision.
It is simply too front heavy, making some of your shots hit low.
Hope you will do well in that competition.
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David Levene
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Re: The late FAS 603 vs. 38 Spec. WC K-revolver
Even I will admit that they will not last forever. Last year we even had to scrap one that was only 20 years old. During it's life it went to every Commonwealth Games since 1986 (which it won) along with many World and European Championships.funMOR wrote:Your FAS 603 died, Phillip? Like most other 603s eventually will. (Yes, David, we have learned they will).
It's last owner changed to a Hammerli SP20. Somehow I don't think the longevity will be as good.
I think most posters have hit on the important stuff.
1. You'll need an orthopaedic grip for the Model 14.
2. The difference between the 2-stage trigger of the 603 and the single stage S&W is significant.
3. The recoil between the two is also significant, where the lower boreline of the 603 is an advantage.
The other excellent .32 S&WL is the Manhurin revolver.
Many shooters successfully shoot the S&W Model 52 in .38 spl, but with modified grips.
I still have and shoot my IGI/FAS 603 (vintage 1983) in both NRA CF and ISSF Duel. Only problems in over 20 years have been with magazines.
1. You'll need an orthopaedic grip for the Model 14.
2. The difference between the 2-stage trigger of the 603 and the single stage S&W is significant.
3. The recoil between the two is also significant, where the lower boreline of the 603 is an advantage.
The other excellent .32 S&WL is the Manhurin revolver.
Many shooters successfully shoot the S&W Model 52 in .38 spl, but with modified grips.
I still have and shoot my IGI/FAS 603 (vintage 1983) in both NRA CF and ISSF Duel. Only problems in over 20 years have been with magazines.
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Kelly
Re: S&W Mod 14-4 K-38
Phillip, why put in so much effort into a loaner gun for one match?
Phillip wrote:My current FAS CF603 centre fire gun has just died and I can't get another one before a competion next week and friend offered his old K-38 to use.
What I would like to know is in comparison to an auto in 32S&W Long what type of points drop can I expect? I shoot 575-580 on ISSF centre fire. Is it possible to shoot just as well with a revolver or to almost the same standard?
Is it possible to adjust the trigger weight up to ensure it will be 1360grams or more as the trigger feels a little light and when I place the trigger weights on it it is between 1000grams and 1360grams.
What is a good accurate but light load for a 38 using hollow base wadcutters?
Many Thanks!
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David Levene
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- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: S&W Mod 14-4 K-38
An important (selection?) match perhaps.Kelly wrote:Phillip, why put in so much effort into a loaner gun for one match?
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Phillip
David is correct; it is a selection match for our national team.
Things that are different are the sights being thin. I have a very wide front sight on the FAS. The recoil is definately alot more and I am sure it has an effect(.38cal 158gr HBWC with 2.6 gr of WST).
People say the trigger but I find it is like a 2 stage trigger any way. 1st stage is my finger pad compressing and 2nd is the trigger weight.
My main difficulty is that the gun only has the standard wood S&W grip and it makes life difficult.
Any how in training I have been able to consistantely shoot 93-95 in precision and 95-97 in duelling so only time will tell if it will work in the match.
I will let you know how it went next week.
Things that are different are the sights being thin. I have a very wide front sight on the FAS. The recoil is definately alot more and I am sure it has an effect(.38cal 158gr HBWC with 2.6 gr of WST).
People say the trigger but I find it is like a 2 stage trigger any way. 1st stage is my finger pad compressing and 2nd is the trigger weight.
My main difficulty is that the gun only has the standard wood S&W grip and it makes life difficult.
Any how in training I have been able to consistantely shoot 93-95 in precision and 95-97 in duelling so only time will tell if it will work in the match.
I will let you know how it went next week.
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David Levene
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- Location: Ruislip, UK
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Kelly
In that case, best of luck to you, perhaps the change will heighten your senses and you will shoot a personal best ;~) Stranger things have happened. Wishing you lots of 10's
Phillip wrote:David is correct; it is a selection match for our national team.
Things that are different are the sights being thin. I have a very wide front sight on the FAS. The recoil is definately alot more and I am sure it has an effect(.38cal 158gr HBWC with 2.6 gr of WST).
People say the trigger but I find it is like a 2 stage trigger any way. 1st stage is my finger pad compressing and 2nd is the trigger weight.
My main difficulty is that the gun only has the standard wood S&W grip and it makes life difficult.
Any how in training I have been able to consistantely shoot 93-95 in precision and 95-97 in duelling so only time will tell if it will work in the match.
I will let you know how it went next week.
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK