TargetTalk

A friend brought this up in a recent conversation:
Since the ISSF is changing the rules for Rapid Fire in order (in part) to increase participation by switching from the current, expensive, specialized, .22 short pistol to the more-common "standard" pistol (as used in Standard Pistol and Sport Pistol), would it not be equally valid to make a similar change to increase participation in Free Pistol? That is, do away with the expensive, specialized, single-shot pistol and instead use the "standard" pistol.
The arguments for this change are just as valid as the arguments for the change in the Rapid Fire pistol. Think of the increased participation, and the reduced cost to the shooter, because the same pistol would be used for four events: Standard, Sport, Rapid, and Free. Of course the meaning of "free" in Free Pistol would be lost, but the event is really called 50-Metre Pistol anyway.

Mike: You may currently use a "standard" pistol in the FP event provided you load only one round at a time. You may see this at some club events. Greg

I think you can use your standard pistol,as long as you load
one cartridge at a time, It might be a bit uncompetetive against
free pistols though ;-)


http://www.issf-shooting.com/Rules/spec ... istol.html
page 64

The same arguments DON'T work. Something fundamental to the game is changed if "free" pistol is required to be shot with a sport pistol. The "free" unlimited nature of the event would no longer exist. This is in stark contrast to shooting rapid fire with sport pistols. You can be "rapid" while shooting a sport pistol, but you can't be "free" while shooting one.

Sorry, guys, I didn't make the proposal clear. I know one may use a standard pistol to shoot Free Pistol - been there, done that :-)
What Im trying to say is to change the rules so that ONLY a standard pistol would be allowed.
So, just as is going to happen to the current .22 short rapid fire pistol, the current single-shot, light-triggered, wrap-around-grip pistol would become as extinct as the Dodo. Well not quite; one could still use it for plinking - just as has been suggested for the soon-to-be-obsolete .22 short rapid fire pistol.
BTW, besides the potential advantage of greater participation in Free Pistol (aka 50-Metre Pistol), the event could also be speeded up since there would no longer be the need for single round loading. Single round loading is only required for safety reasons because the current rules permit the use of a self-loader with no restriction on trigger weight. One wouldn't want a self-loader going full auto because the trigger had been adjusted so light that the recoil caused the next round to fire! That wouldn't be a concern when using a pistol with a trigger weight of 1000 grams.
So, let's push for this rule change. It will increase participation, since lots of shooters already have a standard pistol. It will lower a shooter's cost to participate, since he won't have to buy a special pistol. It will even allow a reduction in the time allotted for the event, since a shooter can load five rounds at a time.
Now I anticipate some protest from current owners of free pistols, but, hey, just as the ISSF did to rapid fire pistol owners, screw them!

As long as the goal is to increase participation, you may want to contemplate allowing: 1. optical sights so as to be more welcoming to NRA bullseye shooters; 2. two-hand hold to attract the IDPA/IPSC shooters; 3. reactive targets to bring in the metallic silhouette folks. And while you're at it, since free pistol is properly an outdoor event, how about making some provision for black powder?

Well, Sparky, the freedom of design in Free Pistol is pretty restricted. No support beyond the wrist. No optical sights. No laser sights, No peep sights. Gun must be fired by the hand that holds it. No release triggers. There is actually quite a few restrictions on the so-called "free pistol". One is free to play with barrel length, sight radius, and trigger weight, though. The big challenge, of course, is to hit the 10-ring at 50 metres, holding a pistol in one hand. That challenge would still remain when using a standard pistol. Any standard pistol worth its name will group within the 10-ring at 50 metres, so it's up to the shooter.

Mike Taylor wrote:A friend brought this up in a recent conversation:
Since the ISSF is changing the rules for Rapid Fire in order (in part) to increase participation by switching from the current, expensive, specialized, .22 short pistol to the more-common "standard" pistol (as used in Standard Pistol and Sport Pistol), .....

Hi

My current experience with "changing the rules to increase participation" is that it's not a very good idea. My experience is based on one of the families in our team. They were shooting in the smallbore 4-H nationals, and bought or borrowed 3 rifles to shoot in three different events. All of the events had different rules "to allow more participation".

I think that IN GENERAL we're all better off to make up a sport, and then leave it alone. We do need to better publicize our youth sports, and better educate our nation's shoppers so that they don't buy a 40 S&W Glock to shoot Service Pistol with for example.

Mike

Wichita KS

While I have seen many a good shooter do quite well with a "Standard" Pistol on the FP course, other good shooters with a suitable FP do better in the long run. That target is a bitch by any stretch of the imagination and at 50 metres (yards) I think it is "easier" than the equivalent 50 ft or 25 yard reduced targets. I personally prefer the longer ranges of 50 metres (yards) than any of the shorter ranges. When you change an event to "increase shooter interest", you have an extension of the Murphy Corollary to the Hutchinson enigma---fogedaboudit---it just ain't going to happen. They will change the RF rules after 2004 and I personally think that is the death knell for that venue. When the ISU got PC about the "man" type targets back a few years ago and switched to the big black dot, OK it worked and then they added the white lines---now we will have to see a target with larger scoring rings to accomodate the .22lr cartridge and it's recoil---I think the new pistols that will be coming on the scene to "replace" the old RF guns, ought to be quite interesting---sit back, watch and wait---save your money. Of course I like the attitude "screw the RF shooters", let the "FP boys bitch"---that's a real nice way of relating to your fellow Pistol shooters, it ought to get you way up on the popularity list.

It's no wonder that the sport of shooting is in decline when participants in different types of shooting want to screw the other guy just because their event was changed. With jerks inside the sport like we have we really don't need any enemies.

Maybe I was too subtle, trying to play the devils advocate. It's not that I'm trying to screw the other sport. The ISSF has, or is about to, screw the current Rapid Fire shooters by changing the pistol. I don't see it as any different than if they made a similar change to Free Pistol. I don't support either change. I own and shoot (although far too infrequently) both a true rapid fire pistol and a true free pistol. I like the concept that the rapid fire pistol is so different from the free pistol. It's like the difference between a NHRA dragster and a FIA endurance racer - both highly specialized, but neither suited to the other's event.
I tried to point out the enormity of the change being made to Rapid Fire by drawing a parallel with a similar change being made to Free Pistol. I agree we should support the other guy's event. So, how come there is so little protest at changing the rules for Rapid Fire? Are the top shooters in Rapid Fire asking for this change? I don't think so! Shooters should write the rules, not administrators.

I think serious consideration of such a FP rule change would be a BAD idea.
It's a difficult event which, in my opinion, pushes the envelope of precision pistol shooting. The refinement of the FP as a shooting instrument reflects its neccessity to the event. If shooter participation is an issue then that's where standard pistol and AP excel.
As for rapid fire, I think the real issue of participation is match and range logistics. My club (Newberry, SC) holds regular matches and can support 8 shooters on the line for FP, standard, sport, or CF. Only 2 can shoot RF at the same time. You just need more space or a whole day of relays for one event. Match directors, at least on a conventional club range, are reluctant to include RF from a practical standpoint.
I don't see where the use of a 22 short RF pistol has been the problem (barring those annoying alibis). After purchasing a FP, standard pistol, AP, a centerfire conversion or CF pistol, who cares about one more shooting instrument (be it a 22short pistol or conversion unit)?
I guess we'll see if the new rules actually produce a sustained new interest in RF. How many shooters with an investment in the old 22short will just drop out? How many clubs will commit range space to the event?

Jim B.

BTW: It is my understanding that when Air Pistol was first added as either an ISSF event or Olympic event, the idea was that it would replace Free pistol. Personally, I hope that doesn't happen....

Thanks, WILLIAM, you are an intelligent joker. Black powder free pistol. I would simply love that.

And, RICHARD H: can you please forward some information about those "jerks" you mentioned?. What have they done wrong? I am curious.

Don't laugh too hard, FWB already has one!

http://www.feinwerkbau.com/en/frame_en.htm

click on Product Information to see the picture

Underhammer percussion pistol cal. .36


Mid 19th century the American gunsmith Billinghurst developped the mechanism of this percussion pistol. Nowadays, we produce this masterpiece of old days on most modern machines and use high quality material. A pistol for competition with underhammer firing, highest quality, sight adjustable in height and adjustable trigger weight.

Free pistol is not in need of a fix, there has never been many participants in free pistol and it does not need to become the "poplular" way to shoot. NRA bullseye shooters are not going to flock to free pistol no matter what you do to the rules.

BP free pistol is HERE. Try www.usimlt.org or www.mlaic.org. We've got events for flintlock pistol, percussion pistol, revolver, and even matchlock pistol (watch out for that burning rope). :-)

BTW, I remain convinced that there is going to be a big market for retrofit kits for existing RF pistols, and that Walther and Pardini will rush to fill that void.

The proposed rule changes aren't only to draw new participants. The .22 short ammunition
manufacturers have a very small market for a very difficult to make dependable product. With ISSF
Rapidfire going to .22 long rifle, the .22 short as we know it will disappear. The CCI high velocity stuff
will still probably be around, but there won't be a need to produce the high end shorts any more, which
I'm sure they lost money on
I'm of mixed feelings on this issue. I own 2 OSP's , and have a couple of cases of shorts on hand yet. I
can see club level matches still allowing the use of shorts. We'll just have to see what the future brings.

R.M.

You aren't the only one who's sitting on a bunch of RF stuff. I've got an OSP and about 8500 rounds of R25.

Nevertheless, I thnk the switchover is an excellent idea. Let's face it, right now, there are two RF makers - Walther and Pardini. As opposed to Walther, Pardini, FWB, Match Guns, Morini, and Hammerli making high-end SPs, plus a slew of other firms making entry-level guns. The same for ammo. Going over to SP broadens the base, and will keep us in equipment for a long while.

But I still would bet the farm on Walther and Pardini coming out with retrofit kits.

Mike Taylor wrote:Well, Sparky, the freedom of design in Free Pistol is pretty restricted. No support beyond the wrist. No optical sights. No laser sights, No peep sights. Gun must be fired by the hand that holds it. No release triggers. There is actually quite a few restrictions on the so-called "free pistol". One is free to play with barrel length, sight radius, and trigger weight, though. The big challenge, of course, is to hit the 10-ring at 50 metres, holding a pistol in one hand. That challenge would still remain when using a standard pistol. Any standard pistol worth its name will group within the 10-ring at 50 metres, so it's up to the shooter.

Mike,

I have an Steyr LP50 AP which I use for standard/rapid events, but mainly use for 10m precision (couldn't afford 2 pistols). The gun will easily hold a 10 ring (if not the X) but I am only capable of holding a 8 ring (9 on a good day). I enter competitions where 95% of the competitors are using single shots and know I'm at a disadvantage, but I still compete. When I can justify it (getting to X or A class from my current C class) then I'll invest in a single shot.

If someone has a standard pistol and fancy a spot of 50m shooting, they can enter the free pistol event. They'll be at a disadvantage, but they'll get experience and if they enjoy it, will decide for themselves to upgrade. I don't think a rule change is needed.

Just my 2 cents,

Nik