TargetTalk

What would happen with ISSF rifle if special Jackets, pants, shoes, etc. were outlawed. Only a light jacket for prone or elbow pads. Archers and pistol shooters don’t seem to need them. Rifle shooters can barely walk in their shooting suits and they serve to raise the bar to entry another few thousand dollars. I imagine it would probably lead to lighter rifles and different techniques. Am I just stirring the pot? Yes to a certain extent. International shooting in the US is very thin on the ground. Compare it to World Archery either recurve or compound and it almost doesn’t exist. You can’t get anyone at USA shooting to answer an Email At USA Archery they go out of their way to find you a coach and train more of them.

K38,

What you want already exists; look at Target Sprint, CMP Sporter air rifle, or .22 matches.

Specialised shooting clothing evolved gradually over many decades. Yes, the first jackets were just a way to hang elbowpads and protect clothing (in a time of manual laundry). Heavy rifles developed before clothing: Winchester made a bull-barrel (extra heavy) 52 in the 1930s.

Remove jackets and trousers and you see injury and a whole lot of shooters who no longer enjoy their sport. And for what, so pistol shooters can gloat? By the same standard will you abandon anatomical grips, PCP, or for the archers all go back to long bows?

I can't speak for other countries, but, here in the UK our national body will direct the public to clubs where they can find both instructors and equipment.

Pistolero gonna hate... :-)

No, it will not reanimate international shooting in the US - people prefer "real" guns there (the bow is fine too, one can hunt with it). It will cause different injuries only.

Why would there be injury? Just from the weight of the rifle?

You wouldn’t believe how much weight the top international compound bow archers load on their front and back stabilizer rods! You look at their weight stacks and it just hurts, then you realize it it might be tungsten to boot!

K38 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 9:16 amWhy would there be injury?

From spinal twist and double bent, shooting jackets were developed to prevent it decades ago.

So rifle shooters don’t twist and bend anymore?
The jack acts as a sort of body cast after a fashion?

They do, but don't get injured after few years of intensive trainings.

I think it was here I saw that air rifle scores have gone nuts the last couple decades, a score that would have won you an Olympic Medal 30 years ago wouldn't even get you on the Olympic Team now? Contrast that with air pistol scores which haven't changed much over that time.

I'm guessing the difference is one is much more of an equipment game and the other isn't. Only so much you can do with a t-shirt and a steady arm.

I remember reading somewhere, that removing the jacket opens groups up by approx. one scoring ring. So a nine would by an eight and so on.
Gort

As others have eluded to, the way the sport has evolved (heavy rifles, asymmetric load on the spin) some variety of back support is required to avoid injury. If shooting clothes were removed, rifles would probably need to be lighter and positions may need to be adjusted. It would require such an overhaul of the sport and everyone's gear that it just won't happen, even if it would boost attendance and create enthusiasm for the sport (I have no idea whether it would or not, but the way everyone was going crazy over the Turkish pistol shooter suggests there may be something there).

As an honest self reflection, we could however safely get rid of the specialized shooting boots and that may get rid of the 'Ministry of Silly Walks' that goes on that you are referring too.

As to exactly 'what would happen', the few score comparisons I have seen showed a drop of 1 to 2 points per shot without the gear. So your qualifying scores would be down around 580-ish.

Also, just realized OP is a pistol shooter and not a random tourist so going to entertain the pot stirring as opposed to just defaulting to the standard explanation when people are curious.

Say we change the rules in 10m mixed pairs so for the next olympics so you have no gear and everyone uses a sub 4kg rifle to reduce back injury risk. Because we are only changing mixed pairs everyone gets to keep using their gear in the other events so you don't have the revolt over making everyone's gear useless the same way you did with the 22 short drama.

What effect do you think this is going to have on the state of international disciplines? Sure it would knock 2k off the price of participation and allow the everyday rifle shooter to relate to the sport better, but would that actually translate to a much greater shooter base participating in ISSF matches?

As somebody who is very new and interested in the sport of precision shooting I will just say that I was immediately more drawn to air rifle than pistol before realizing the start-up cost into air rifle was so much more expensive than pistol. However as someone with intermittent back problems I do understand saftey over cost efficiency.

Duplicate Post

These types of threads come and go. Inevitably the appeal is made to safety and of course we must have that! I’ve found that when a person appeals to safety most of the rest of the world shuts their brain off and shuts their mouth. And, I’m not a pistol shooter. I’ve dabbled in international rifle shooting for 50 years. When i started shooters didn’t wear clothes that amounted to a hard shell (exoskeleton ). My first leather isu jacket had little support. Shooting pants were yet to be invented. In later years as the outer shell became popular i practiced a lot in street clothes. Today i participate in metallic silhouette which is shot all standing with no supportive clothing. People don’t get injured and people didn’t get injured back when. This is appeal to safety is crap! The hard shell clothing is just the result of competitors pushing the envelope in pursuit of points and it’s paid off to the detriment of the sport.

pdeal wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 10:25 am This is appeal to safety is crap! The hard shell clothing is just the result of competitors pushing the envelope in pursuit of points and it’s paid off to the detriment of the sport.

100% agree. Also its pushed by the clothing manufacturers because it equals $$$!

There’s always frisbee golf. I remember Gramps always complaining about the invention of the self-contained cartridge.

j-team wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:39 pm 100% agree. Also its pushed by the clothing manufacturers because it equals $$$!

Our youths shoot 195+/390+ AR just in Sauer Standard clothes with very basic FWBs (all stuff from the club). LOTS of $$$, for sure.

rgibson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:23 pm There’s always frisbee golf. I remember Gramps always complaining about the invention of the self-contained cartridge.

Yeah I forgot to mention the argument of gramps complaining about the newfangled widgets. Also very effective at shutting down discussion.

Not that it matters at all because pandora is out of the box and won't be put back in. When you see that the top shooters basically have a 10.5+ hold or something like that It seems not good for the sport. I know there have been air rifle improvements too which contribute. I think in the last 20 years these have been mostly ergonomic. The artificial support provided by modern outfits is the one that seems contrary to the intent of things to me.

Gramps will shut up now lest he make the snowflakes feel bad.

I've been a rifle coach for 24 years and I think the jackets and pants are an absolute joke and a huge hindrance to our sport. Needing a $2,000 custom suit to be competitive is absolutely ridiculous.

If safety is the concern (which I don't believe it is) then simply lower the max weight of the rifles.

The suits are a result of shooters trying to get every possible advantage and manufacturers exploiting that.

Want to get people into our sport? Lower the barriers to entry and the appearance that it's crazy gear driven sport.

So to answer your question, "What would happen to air rifle without special clothes?":
-scores would go down
-the sport would become more affordable -> leading to more participants

side effects: elite shooters becoming upset that they no longer have an advantage and obsessive ammo testing would become less important