Stance & vision question?

[toddinjax]

In the past I have used a stance closer to being turned 45 degrees to the target rather than 90 degrees which seems to be much more common. I have experimented recently standing much closer to 90* and it does seem to be easier to achieve NPA doing this and it makes reproducing correct arm position easy. Your raised arm goes straight up in line with your body, if you go too far to the right (right handed shooter) you can quickly feel the stress on your shoulder caused by putting an arm "behind" you. I wear eyeglasses and of course the best place to look through a lens in directly in its center. However using this 90* stance and turning my head leaves my right eye looking "straight" through the right hand side of my prescription; turning my head so far that I'm looking through center of my glasses strains my neck. I do have street glasses fitted with a lens optimized for shooting. Should I "misalign" these glasses to sit off to the right? Is that (part of) what "pistol glasses" are used for?
Thank you for any knowledge shared.

[william]

Looks like you're on the horns of a dilemma. The only logical solution is to sell all your equipment, use the proceeds to buy as much 16 year-old Laphroaig as funds permit, and send it all except the one bottle you save for yourself to me in gratitude for giving you such swell advice.

Cheers!

[brent375hh]

I tried to stand like the top shooters. I'm an old guy and it didn't work for me. Using slightly more than 45 degrees works much better for me. I wonder if it's just a fad, because I remember seeing some very good shooters in the days of old use something close to 45 degrees.

Google Uwe Potteck. He was the 1976 Olympic 50 meter gold medalist. Many pictures of him standing 50-60 degrees to the target.

[atomicgale]

buy as much 16 year-old Laphroaig as funds permit . . .

Why the hell did I just google "Laphroaig" knowing it would be some useless incantation from William.

Anyway, on the topic requested: (1) Get Champion Olympic shooting glasses. (2) AVOID! At all costs neck strain. Do NOT end up like me with diagnosed neck Stenosis C2-C5, thus shunning the "Laphroaig" for MRI's, ablations, dexamethasone, and a whole sort of other medical bullshit to treat a wrenched neck from sending 10's-of-thousands of precision shots down range while ignoring your basic fundamental anatomy.

Hence, a $350 pair of specs would be well worth avoiding the whole poor-posture regimen.

Anyway, "Laphroaig" seems unavailable at this southern latitude. How would "Coors-brewery-whiskey" rate?

LINK: https://www.foodandwine.com/news/coors- ... five-trail
("Five-Trail blended" from my former next-door neighbor in Golden Colorado, Pete Coors.)

LINK: https://www.ebay.com/itm/360303589110?s ... 1438.l2649
(Ebay for Champion Olympic frames.) (Note, Champion Choice up the road from here only has Super-Olympic - much too snobby!)

[Rover]

That stance stuff is all trendy anyway. Just find a position steady and comfortable. If it hurts, you're doing it wrong....kinda like.....

[Agt. Smith]

That stance stuff is all trendy anyway. Just find a position steady and comfortable. If it hurts, you're doing it wrong....kinda like.....

Right or wrong - that's what I'm doing !

[emre-nur]

Looks like you're on the horns of a dilemma. The only logical solution is to sell all your equipment, use the proceeds to buy as much 16 year-old Laphroaig as funds permit, and send it all except the one bottle you save for yourself to me in gratitude for giving you such swell advice.

Cheers!

my funds would only permit the regular one. 16 years-old one is nearing 200 euros :)

[william]

Looks like you're on the horns of a dilemma. The only logical solution is to sell all your equipment, use the proceeds to buy as much 16 year-old Laphroaig as funds permit, and send it all except the one bottle you save for yourself to me in gratitude for giving you such swell advice.

Cheers!

my funds would only permit the regular one. 16 years-old one is nearing 200 euros :)

I'll accept it graciously ;-)

[atomicgale]

Couldn't help but to use the power of "cut & paste," selective editing, and taking written statements completely out of context in a Goebbelesque retort to William turning this forum into his own distorted Alcoholic Anonymous meeting, as he wakes up hungover & realizes Laphroaig is gone.

. . . use the proceeds to buy as much 16 year-old as funds permit . . . .

William - REALLY!?! You should probably fly to Bangkok for that sort of thing.

[brent375hh]

I even wonder if standing 90° and craning my old neck doesn't reduce the blood flow to my aging brain.

[Rover]

. . . use the proceeds to buy as much 16 year-old as funds permit . . . .

William - REALLY!?! You should probably fly to Bangkok for that sort of thing.
[/quote]


Nah, Wild Willie gets all that he wants at his "Live Free or Die" place.

[nmondal]

From the ISSF manual - here comes the different stances. It says - all allowed - and just do it.
Find out, naturally what suites you best.


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[spektr]

Knoblocks fix all the where you look issues. the lens can be placed anywhere and you can look right through the middle of it.

[GoodEnuf]

The graphics posted by nmondal make clear another (subtle) consideration - the farther from shoulders aligned to the target you are, the more the shooting arm is obliged to swing across the body to align the eye with the sights and target. You now must (1) break the wrist to the right, or (2) rotate the pistol in your hand (change the way you hold the pistol), or (3) tilt your head, or (4) adjust the swivel angle of the grip if the pistol you have will allow this adjustment, or a combination of all of these.

I think most shooters don't shoot at 90* and combine (1), (2), and (3) unconsciously; options (1) and (3) are pernicious because they add to the difficulty of exact repeatable consistency. Option (2) might require handgrip or trigger adjustment to get the geometry correct. When you change your stance angles these are considerations that deserve deliberate attention. These are conditions that are tested with the idea of fixing a stance angle and lifting your arm with your eyes closed and pistol in hand, and getting a good sight picture without having to re-adjust your stance, wrist break, or head tilt; the bodily adjustments would involve changing the stance angle which might negate your original intent, or breaking your wrist to some degree, or tilting your head to acquire the desired sight line.

The old, classic book, Competitive Shooting, has many top views of several shooters of the 50's and 60's exemplifying this situation. (I would quote the Russian author's name, but without looking it up, I would misspell it.)

Trim, thin body types may not experience the problem. I am stocky, with short arms and very wide shoulders; this puts the pivoting shoulder farther away from the sighting eye than most shooters and makes the angle to deal with greater for me; I also don't care to strain my neck or tilt my head. The FWB P8x has swiveling capability and is advertised to help those with a similar problem in its extreme, that is, of cross eyed shooting - left eye, right hand - I acquired one and I use this capability to adjust the problem away. I have a FWB 102 and a P34, each without the swiveling adjustment, and which I shoot from time to time. The effect is evident each time I shoot them, compared to the newer FWB PCP.

Some other PCP pistols may have this adjustment; the Rink grips also have the option to specify a preordained non-adjustable swivel angle (for about $250).

If you are adventurous and have a spare grip set, you could seriously modify the grips to produce a swivel effect. That would be radical and would be a climb without an easy path down.

Advice to do what comes naturally is the best one could take mainly because it invites consistency without strain and injury. But to do this, one must be aware of compromises that may arise that need to be addressed. The swiveling grip adjustment allows me to follow the advice without further complication.

To me, the many interacting factors to consider are what make this pastime continually interesting. The the goal of superlative shooting is ever present but realistically out of reach in this lifetime.

JE

After reading this long-winded post, I realize another approach to the stance angle compromise is to start not with the stance angle but with the eye, sights, target alignment. Lift your arm into shooting position with your head turned as much as (naturally) possible without strain, and with no head tilt, and with eyes closed. Open your eyes and then adjust the stance to bring everything into alignment. This will not maximize the angle, but will allow you to open it up a little, without radical or expensive changes.

JE

[toddinjax]

Thank you GoodEnuf, great post.

[nmondal]

Some other PCP pistols may have this adjustment; the Rink grips also have the option to specify a preordained non-adjustable swivel angle (for about $250).
.....
After reading this long-winded post, I realize another approach to the stance angle compromise is to start not with the stance angle but with the eye, sights, target alignment. Lift your arm into shooting position with your head turned as much as (naturally) possible without strain, and with no head tilt, and with eyes closed. Open your eyes and then adjust the stance to bring everything into alignment. This will not maximize the angle, but will allow you to open it up a little, without radical or expensive changes.
JE

That is absolutely what I do. Now being said that - the option (2,3) is literally absolutely fine to shoot with your cross dominant eye!
It will be impossible in [1]!

[emre-nur]

.... You now must (1) break the wrist to the right, or (2) rotate the pistol in your hand (change the way you hold the pistol), or (3) tilt your head, or (4) adjust the swivel angle of the grip if the pistol you have will allow this adjustment, or a combination of all of these.

I guess, I am constantly doing a combination of those. Six months into shooting AP and I am still experimenting with stance and head position— whether to lean slightly backwards (as many olympic shooters do) and so on.

I am kind of slim, but I dont think it helps, at least not in my case. I have small feet and weak spine and back muscles, meaning that I lean to the sides or to the front a lot, unconsciously. Yes, I am exercising as much as I can but after 46 a bit more difficult.

In sum, now I feel that I need someone to monitor my stance and general composure while shooting and advice accordingly. That should be a coach that I dont have access. The second best thing could be asking my wife to shoot a video and send it to the forum. :)

Indeed, great post, more than "good enough" :)

[emre-nur]

Hi,
I also figure out that hunger increases my tremor. But maybe because I drink too much coffee on empty stomach.
Whatever, world is a better place when you eat :)

[Agt. Smith]

I believe I started with position #3, and have in 7 weeks time moved closer to #2.

I'm still trying to understand how my NPOA changes during, say, over the course of 6 targets. I may move around a little - but it's still in #2 territory.

I seem to shoot better on an empty stomach - with NO caffeine. Some guys at the range can down the diet soda like water - no way I could do that.

[toddinjax]

Good point Agt Smith about an empty stomach. It has been studied and proven that being hungry improves concentration.
I had my first session with a coach and 95*/45*stance is the first subject I questioned him about. He replied, "if you were 18 years old I would absolutely start you out standing 90 degrees". Seeing as I turned 60 on 9-11, I end up between positions 2 and 3 in the graphic.