TargetTalk

I found this picture on the web--it looks like a Morini grip and to me it looks like it extends past the wrist. My understanding of 50m Free pistol is that the grip must not touch the wrist or go past it . Is my understanding correct?

Doesn't this picture look like the grip is being slightly supported by the competitor's arm?

I have only shot NRA bullseye pistol myself and I have read through parts of the rulebook for 50m, so perhaps I am misunderstanding something:
Here is the URI for the original image:

http://antony-vaillant.e-monsite.com/al ... /tir2.html

cheers,

Matthew

Simple test, put pistol in hand held level, tilt wrist both up 30 deg and down 30 deg.
If wrist is free to move then its unsupported.
Definition of wrist is very vague.

Thanks for that info--I am just finishing my grips and I'm trying to determine if I need to cut anything off, but from your test, it looks ok.

cheers,

Matthew

Looks dodgy to me, thats way past the wrist.

Simple test, put pistol in hand held level, tilt wrist both up 30 deg and down 30 deg.

The cheat in RF was to put your hand in almost all the way for the test, then put it all the way in to shoot.
According to a comm games rf shooter.

Anyway there is no 30 degree test, this is the rule

8.4.1 Standards for All Pistols

8.4.1.1 Grips. For dimensions and details of grips see the PISTOL SPECIFICATION
TABLE (8.12) and the PISTOL CONFIGURATION DRAWINGS (8.13).

a) Neither the grip nor any part of the pistol may be extended or constructed in
any way that would allow it to touch beyond the hand. The wrist must remain
visibly free when the pistol is held in the normal firing position. Bracelets,
wristwatches, wristbands, or similar items are prohibited on the hand and arm
that holds the pistol; and

b) Adjustable grips are permitted providing that when they are adjusted for the
athlete's hand they conform to these Rules. Grip adjustments are subject to
random Equipment Control checks to ensure that they conform with these
Rules.

8.4.3.4 50m Pistol

a) Any caliber 5.6 mm (.22 cal.) rimfire pistol chambered for long rifle cartridges
may be used; and

b) Hand covers for 50m Pistols are permitted, providing they do not cover the
wrist.

JamesHH wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:25 am The cheat in RF was to put your hand in almost all the way for the test, then put it all the way in to shoot.
According to a comm games rf shooter.

6.8.4 Jury Members must continuously observe the shooting positions and the equipment of the athletes.
6.8.5 Jury Members have the right to examine the guns, equipment, positions, etc., of the athletes at any time, during training and competitions.

In other words, the grip cannot touch the forearm (part of the arm between the wrist and the elbow). In this picture the grip is most defenatly touching the inner arm. Absolutly most defenatly.

The rule problem is the definition of the wrist.
Where does the wrist stop and the forearm start in terms that a judge or equipment control can enforce ?
The movement test just displays that the wrist is free and unsupported, a simple test.

If we can define what a hand is, that helps. The wrist is where the hand stops. DNA defines a Man and DNA defines a Woman. A wrist cannot be a ear becouse the shooter wants it to be a ear. In the first picture, the grip is clearly touching the forearm. In the second picture, it looks like that when the arm is raised, the wrist would be free to move becouse the angle has changed.

Honestly, just looks like he's using a grip far too big for his hand. It does obviously touch his forearm in the first pic. Btw, the second pic is a different shooter/pistol.

Dave

David M wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:35 pm The rule problem is the definition of the wrist.
Where does the wrist stop and the forearm start in terms that a judge or equipment control can enforce ?
The movement test just displays that the wrist is free and unsupported, a simple test.

Is the movement test defined in the rules?

Should be very easy to find the fixed bones of the forearm.

Dcforman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:37 am Honestly, just looks like he's using a grip far too big for his hand. It does obviously touch his forearm in the first pic. Btw, the second pic is a different shooter/pistol.

Dave

Looks like the same gun and grip with some extra stickers, the one sticker on the first gun is in the exact same place.

Ah, you may be right. That grip still looks huge.

"The wrist must remain visibly free when the pistol is held in the normal firing position."

This is not "visibly free" by any means.

JamesHH wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:46 am Is the movement test defined in the rules?

No

eugene wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:58 am "The wrist must remain visibly free when the pistol is held in the normal firing position."

This is not "visibly free" by any means.

This thread demonstrates how deceptive photographs can be.

I learned many years ago that you can only make a fair judgement when seeing the gun being held, live, and especially looking from the open side.

We appear to share the interest in photography then, David. It could also well may be the case am wrong.

But on the first photo there is a visible shadow from the grip way into the wrist, and it's not like there's some oblique lighting angle.

eugene wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:16 am But on the first photo there is a visible shadow from the grip way into the wrist, and it's not like there's some oblique lighting angle.

All I can see on the first photo is the grip touching the hand on the closed side of the grip.

The grip might be touching the wrist elsewhere, but that photo doesn't show it.

It may well be it does not touch the wrist anywhere, but as I read the rule the grip should not obstruct the view of the wrist. That interpretation would make sense, since the point is to permit controlling whether the wrist is unsupported.

a) Neither the grip nor any part of the pistol may be extended or constructed in
any way that would allow it to touch beyond the hand. The wrist must remain
visibly free when the pistol is held in the normal firing position.

Visibly free - not sure exactly what that part means - when viewed from the side while shooting?

Otherwise You could have a shroud extending up to the elbow as long as it did not touch the arm.

I've seen a fair number of pictures of grips which are blatantly outside the rules, factory air pistol grips with and inch of timber added to the rear.

eugene wrote: ↑Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:45 am It may well be it does not touch the wrist anywhere, but as I read the rule the grip should not obstruct the view of the wrist. That interpretation would make sense, since the point is to permit controlling whether the wrist is unsupported.

But the rules do not say that the grip should not obstruct the view from every angle.

The vast majority of qualified Jury Members and Range Officers know what they are looking at.