TargetTalk

Watching the 10 meter air pistol competition I am impressed and I want to try it.
And how about the elbow lock they achieve, is there a technique/training that is detailed in a book or website?
Are there any coaching clinics in the US that one can visit?
Thanks.

Amati wrote:Watching the 10 meter air pistol competition I am impressed and I want to try it.
And how about the elbow lock they achieve, is there a technique/training that is detailed in a book or website?
Are there any coaching clinics in the US that one can visit?
Thanks.

Are you talking about the elbow position that (mainly) women achieve.
A great many women, including many in the top ranks of air pistol shooting, have elbows that bend backwards beyond 180 degrees.
Some men also have it, but far far fewer.

Now that you mention it, it was initially women shooters that attracted my attention to the elbow lock. Anatomical gender differences? In that case I am quite manly ... though I wish I had that kind of elbow when I'm shooting bullseye.

Do you really want heavy recoiling pistols snapping your elbow backwards?

Rover wrote:Do you really want heavy recoiling pistols snapping your elbow backwards?

Yup, those 10m air pistols really knock you around!

Hyper-extension in the joints (in this case the elbow) isn't something that you can learn, you are just born that way. I doubt it makes any difference to holding or stability.

j-team wrote: .... I doubt it makes any difference to holding or stability.

It just must considering all the attention that the top bullseye shooters bring to it. I'm sometimes shooting next to a 2600 guy who never fails to look at me condescendingly when he counts my scores and points at my elbow while rolling his eyes.

"Yup, those 10m air pistols really knock you around!"

Was the guy shooting an air pistol? (Sarcasm emoji)

Amati wrote:

j-team wrote: .... I doubt it makes any difference to holding or stability.

It just must considering all the attention that the top bullseye shooters bring to it. I'm sometimes shooting next to a 2600 guy who never fails to look at me condescendingly when he counts my scores and points at my elbow while rolling his eyes.

I haven’t meet any top level bullseye shooter who advocating for a locked elbow, but I’m sure one is out there

Seems common in issf though ?

About the shooting arm position the ISSF says:

"Without being unfair to the importance of the other many body parts and the work done by them, the right arm has one of the most important roles in the shooting process. The right arm has to provide the crucial minimum arc of movement of the pistol, bear the weight of the gun, secure the optimal sighting line condition and deal with recoil. This multi tasking cannot be performed successfully without the engagement and support that other parts of the body provide. In order to provide conditions optimal for those requirements, the right arm has to be totally stretched."

Totally stretched would require a locked elbow.

I think the problem here is that some think the elbow must be forced into submission, causing pain, trembling, and joint problems, rather than just hanging off the end of the upper arm.

For air pistol & .22, all you need to do is stretch (tension the muscles) JUST enough to get the joint in a stable position, i.e. "locked". You don't have to over-do it. Once the mobility of the joint is eliminated there is absolutely NO need to exert any more force, and it can be hard on both your muscles & the joint.

The problem with bullseye is that for many shooters, that includes going all the way up to shooting .45 ACP with military loads ("hardball"). Depending on how you lock your elbow, the recoil can be very hard on the joint. A lot depends on how you rotate the joint's pivot axis. For most (right handed) people, if you just stick your arm out, the axis of the joint is at about 45 degrees up & to the right. That is roughly aligned 90 degrees with the typical path of recoil, and the elbow will bend up & top the left, reducing some of the shock. One school of thought is that bending is bad for quick recovery & accuracy, and they intentionally rotate the joint so the axis is vertical, and some try it horizontal. Those resists the recoil a little bit better, but it also puts a lot of strain on the joint. I prefer to ignore the slight edge manipulating the joint might give, and go in favor of preserving my elbow.

This is indeed the rotation that Chris had written about in another thread.

To be clear, does a non-rotation of the joint save wear of the elbow but may result in a unlocked arm extension which can then be viewed by an observer as a bent elbow?

Admirable. One wonders what Jorge would do in Bullseye.

Amati wrote:Admirable. One wonders what Jorge would do in Bullseye.

Admirable? Seems to me it's just a freak of nature. Some people are double jointed, others aren't. If that's the best pose for him and it gives him an advantage, IMO it's lucky, not "admirable".

As others have said, it's not about copying the pose that others use, it's finding your best stance and pose. And more important;y understanding why it's best for you.

Amati wrote:This is indeed the rotation that Chris had written about in another thread.

To be clear, does a non-rotation of the joint save wear of the elbow but may result in a unlocked arm extension which can then be viewed by an observer as a bent elbow?

The elbow can be locked independent of the rotation. The rotation just adjusts the angle of the bending axis, and how that aligns with the forces of recoil. With a single shot event like air or free pistol, it doesn't much matter. It's also not a big deal for .22 semi-auto shooting, although it might help a bit in rapid fire. It's mostly an issue for fast recovery with heavier calibers, which is also where you can get into trouble with joint damage.

Amati wrote:Admirable. One wonders what Jorge would do in Bullseye.

Jorge will do well in anything if he's shooting a Matchguns MG2RF!!!!!

Jorge Llames hasn't trained his elbow to be like that, it's just how his anatomy is. Some people have naturally hyper-extended joints (google it), it's more common with women than men.

We have two shooters with that elbow - father and son. It's just how you are made genetically, not training in many cases.

Amati wrote:I'm sometimes shooting next to a 2600 guy who never fails to look at me condescendingly when he counts my scores and points at my elbow while rolling his eyes.

Have you ever approached him and asked for advice? Maybe leave out the condescending eye-roll observation though. :-)