TargetTalk

Greetings-- Been reading through this forum for some time now. Thanks to all for the knowledge learned. I have a question on to which pick everyone's brain. My 13 year old daughter has been shooting sporter class for two years now. Her consistent average is in the 525 range. She has done local/ state competitions, postals and attended CMP Camp. She practices daily and competes with the American Legion and 4H. After CMP Camp she has expressed interest in college rifle team. In your opinion what would be the best time to make the jump from sporter to precision? Is there a target sporter score she should have first? Is it an economic one? Is it age?

Also she currently utilizes a Crosman Challenger. When she does make the jump, is one of the so called "club" rifles recommended first or will I end up buying twice? What considerations should I make with the first precision rifle?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

In my club, the 525 sporter score is when we really consider a kid ready to move on .... if they want. Even better if they can get up to 545 ... then I know their position is pretty darned stable and they have an excellent grasp of the basics.

It also depends on how old they are. In my opinion, the best time to move a kid that is interested in collegiate shooting is as early as possible ... freshman/sophomore year. AND get them on a smallbore right away.

Smallbore is a dying sport and the collegiate coaches really want experience on that gun.

Which gun(s) to get are really associated with their size & strength. I really like some of the lighter Anschutzs, both air & SB, but my own daughter (and a few of my club shooters) have transitioned to the Walthers.

Know that they will continue to grow, especially the gals. Get a suit, even off the rack, with a bit of room for regular growth ... height, weight, arms & legs, but know that with gals in about their JR/SR year you will have hips and bust as well ... the last two thru college many times. We bought a semi-custom for my daughter after her sophomore year in HS, and then her collegiate team put her in a full custom in college. Now almost a year out of college, she is ready for another ... not only in wear, but her measurements changed in college too ... mostly the hips & bust, but she works out more too, so she is more muscular than when she went into college.

Thank you for the great info. I have much to consider. I welcome the possibility of smallbore however here in NY, that might present a challenge.

What are the thoughts of Champs Choice pants and jacket for the first setup?

The Crosman Challenger weighs 7.5 lbs and fits her nice-- I take it we shouldn't go for a big jump in weight just yet??


Thanks

For my team we permit them to transition to precision when they shoot a 500 but it must be in a shoulder to shoulder match. Practice and postal matches don't count.

Beyond that I would agree with everything jhmartin posted. Especially for the girls. I coach an all girls team. All of our gear comes from Champions Choice because they are local.

None of mine have gone on to shoot in college but they all go on to college. We train in a facility with 50' and access to smallbore rifles. After the first of the year, I am introducing those who have the desire (1) to shoot the smallbore rifle.

Mike Carter

StuckinNY wrote:The Crosman Challenger weighs 7.5 lbs and fits her nice-- I take it we shouldn't go for a big jump in weight just yet??

In my opinion, the Challenger is a precision rifle in all but the CMPs eyes. They have allowed so many changes to the sporter program with only the Challenger that I think is would be a great transition rifle.
It's hardly fair to compare the Challenger to the rigid sporters of 6-7 years ago.

Champions Choice gear is a great option to those starting in precision.

Ditto everything they said.

My kid just made the transition around August.
He averages 540+ in the sporter division.
He's still very new at the precision thing, however, something's not the same as he still hasn't broken the code on precision shooting.
In fact, his precision high score is not even 10 points higher than his sporter high score 566.
So, don't expect leaps and bounds right away.
Even though basics are basics, I think what's holding him back is not having a precision coach, so make sure you have someone onhand with that kind of experience.

I'd say invest as much as you can in one of the 10m space rifles like something from the Walther LG400 Alutec line, the Feinwerkbau FWB800 line, or the Anschutz 9015 line that they won't outgrow.
We bought entry level Champ Choice/Gehmann trousers/jacket as he's still a growing boy.

Good luck...

Big thank you for all the info--greatly appreciated. Thinking we ride out the year with sporter up until American Legion shoot in the spring. From there we will purchase the precision gear and use the Challenger to start.

I did consider just buying a Challenger 2009 trigger assembly for $50 (I think it is a direct replacement with a Benjamin Marauder trigger, too.) and modifying it for precision.
(The photo is the best I could find on the web. The notes are not mine and just show factory improvements over the old trigger assembly.)
Even in the sporter division, you can completely back out the trigger weight adjustment screw (marked "overtighten limiting flange") and still easily meet the 1.5 pound trigger pull required for sporters.
For precision, squish the "added torsion link spring" until it only has bare minimum pressure to keep the trigger link bar from rattling around.



And if she qualifies for the American Legion Nationals in sporter this year, she has to sit next year out in sporter.
However, she would be allowed to participate in the precision division next year.
That's how/why we got started in precision...

If you can afford it, get your kid into precision as fast as their interest level dictates. Then thank god each day they are into that and not methamphetamine.

Can you please post any more information you have about this new trigger. Do you know when it came out? Do you know the difference between the versions of the Challenger? Do you know who is selling the trigger?

Ok-- think it is without a doubt time to make the jump. The info on the trigger should lighten the load on the wallet for now. After Christmas bills are paid--time to order jacket/pants/shoes.

Thanks Again

I really don't have any true knowledge about the trigger assemblies.
I've only had a few of the assemblies open to fix broken sears pins, which are a real weak link in the system.
It was then that I noticed some differences like metal parts on one where it was plastic on the other.
One had built in spacers on the cover, whereas on the other there were silicon washer/spacers.
I didn't happen to notice the extra beefiness in the photo above to fix this problem, though...



The Challengers are great guns.
Today, my older son shot a 561.
Wrapped up like a burrito in a shooting suit and holding a rifle with a hair trigger that's worth 4x the Challenger, he can only squeeze out another 10 points, on average.

Like I said above, I could've probably tweaked a Crosman trigger assembly and gotten better immediate results.
Hopefully, he gets better...

StuckinNY wrote:Ok-- think it is without a doubt time to make the jump. The info on the trigger should lighten the load on the wallet for now. After Christmas bills are paid--time to order jacket/pants/shoes.

Thanks Again

Just remember to mark the trigger assembly modified for precision so you can swap them out depending upon the type of competition as it wouldn't be legal for shooting sporter.
It's a simple swap that takes less than five minutes.

In fact, I never really checked the physical dimensions of the Challenger.
They may not be legal (but they probably are) according to the CMP/ISSF rulebooks to use in the precision division, but I don't think anyone will complain, anyway.
Plus, I have seen several Challengers used in the 60-shot standing competitions at Anniston.

If you try it, let us know how it works out...

And I was going to suggest that you buy a NOS Walther LG400 Competition model with Insight-Out sights (a $600 option) from 10pt9.com since they had them marked down to $2075, but apparently I just bought the last one.

However, you can wheel-n-deal with Charles Pearson, the president of Champions Choice, too. ( cap@champchoice.com )
He knocked $105 off my other kid's Walther LG400 Competition when I asked about four months ago.

If you are thinking about one of the higher end rifles that are $2,600 or more on Champions Choice, you may want to check out Krale ( https://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/gun ... r-10m.html ).
Even after import fees, shipping, and credit card fees, it looks like you'd still come out $400 to $600 ahead, depending upon the rifle selected.
I've never dealt with them but I have read of others with favorable reviews.
Maybe someone else will chime in with their experience.

All the feedback is great!

Thanks for the lead on Krale. Those prices are easier to swallow than Champs Choice and Pyramid.

Also any advice or hints on left handed shooters at competitions. We try to secure spot on the end of the line but not always possible. Any other suggestions for lefties?

Watch the prices on Krale.
They fluctuate with the exchange rate!
If you are patient and not in a rush, you can get an even better deal.
For most air rifles, the prices just jumped up today about $20 - $30 from a few days ago when I last looked.
But they will drop again, too...

jhmartin wrote:In my club, the 525 sporter score is when we really consider a kid ready to move on .... if they want. Even better if they can get up to 545 ... then I know their position is pretty darned stable and they have an excellent grasp of the basics.

It also depends on how old they are. In my opinion, the best time to move a kid that is interested in collegiate shooting is as early as possible ... freshman/sophomore year. AND get them on a smallbore right away.

Smallbore is a dying sport and the collegiate coaches really want experience on that gun.

Which gun(s) to get are really associated with their size & strength. I really like some of the lighter Anschutzs, both air & SB, but my own daughter (and a few of my club shooters) have transitioned to the Walthers.

Know that they will continue to grow, especially the gals. Get a suit, even off the rack, with a bit of room for regular growth ... height, weight, arms & legs, but know that with gals in about their JR/SR year you will have hips and bust as well consultant SEO Paris ... the last two thru college many times. We bought a semi-custom for my daughter after her sophomore year in HS, and then her collegiate team put her in a full custom in college. Now almost a year out of college, she is ready for another ... not only in wear, but her measurements changed in college too ... mostly the hips & bust, but she works out more too, so she is more muscular than when she went into college.

Well, it's also a proof that your daughter is very keen on what she does and persevere is not it.

philou17 wrote:Well, it's also a proof that your daughter is very keen on what she does

That she is and still at it.

philou17 wrote:and persevere is not it.

flubber fingers??? don't know what this part means

My son started in precision rifle in 8th grade. The high school team starts them out on Anschutz club rifles. As they progress into freshman/2nd year shooters, and if the scores look progressive, they move on to better rifles. Most all the gear the school has are Gherman or CC. Good begining gear but not the best out there. They WILL outshoot the gear as they progress. So save the $$ for the good stuff as they get close to 550/570's

3p air is good for CMP/4H/ local clubs or high schools. The real shooting in Air rifle will be Standing 60/ NCAA or NJOS. Small bore NCAA will still be 3x40@50 feet.

After his "at large invite" to NJO's in his sophmore year. I paid for the trip to Colorado. That trip was an eye opener for me as to the limits of school suplied gear. When I got back home I bought him an FWB 800x air rifle, An FWB 2700 Super Match small bore rifle, AGH Match pants and jacket (rack sized) Sauer Perfect boots and a plethra of additional gear so he could have his own stuff. After CMP in Ohio, he out grew the jacket/pants so I had to repurchase them in a larger size as he hit a massive growth spurt. He's now 6'1" and pushes 215.

We just got a SIUS HS10 target setup from SIUS USA out of South Carolina. He is now slowing up on 3P air to focus on 60 standing and 3P small bore. We will now focus on Nationals , JO's with a few CMP matches to attend ( the Monthly Matches at Anniston are a days drive for us).


Be patient, and be prepared to spend around 20k to get her through high school age and ready for NCAA. Small bore profeciency is paramount to get colleges interested.

Best of luck!

badwrench5150 wrote:...Be patient, and be prepared to spend around 20k to get her through high school age and ready for NCAA. Small bore profeciency is paramount to get colleges interested.

Best of luck!

DANG!
Why didn't you post this yesterday?!?!?

I say that, because yesterday was the deadline to submit this:
http://www.usashooting.org/donate-20141 ... /endowment

We sent in a wish list for some air rifle stuff, but it never crossed my mind about expanding into small bore!
My older son is a HS junior this year, just breaking into 10m precision air rifle since mid-August.
So, he probably won't get any SB experience next year as a HS senior in preparation for a college team.
Hopefully, his air rifle scores will stand on their own.
It appears that his recent state JO score would place him about third to fifth place on most of the nearby NCAA teams here in the South.

Oh well, there always next year and his younger brother...