TargetTalk

Just heard a bad and sad unconfirmed news - the ISSF just brought during committee meetings in Munich a final decision to remove prone event from the programme of Tokyo Olympic Games 2020!!!

Lets see now..drop prone 50m (if true)...add Frisbee with and without the dog

They have added surfing, skateboarding, karate, softball and climbing to Tokyo. This results in about 20 new events and 500 more athletes.

If they remove it from the world cups as well this will be the death of smallbore rifle. People don't just go straight into 3P or can afford to, they start with Air and prone and that sometimes seeds into 3P. No prone means no 3P.

Sad, but not surprising news.

Methosb, here the old men shoot prone and the juniors of both sexes shoot 3p. Im unaware of a single jr program here that just teaches prone

Do we know if it was IOC or ISSF decision?

methosb wrote:If they remove it from the world cups as well this will be the death of smallbore rifle. People don't just go straight into 3P or can afford to, they start with Air and prone and that sometimes seeds into 3P. No prone means no 3P.

Amazingly, all the new sports added to the Olympic Games have survived and flourished just fine without being in the games.

Many, many, other sports survive and flourish without being in the Olympic Games.

No sport needs the Olympic Games to survive.

Not being in the OG doesn't eliminate prone training or competitions or proficiency badges or any other program at the local level.

I would say similar about World Cup competitions. World cup competitions happen because grass root competition is widespread and popular. Not necessarily the other way around.

The loss of 50M prone from the next Olympic games does not need to be the demise of this event in general. Sure times change, and the OG cannot be everything to everyone.

I sort of put this in the same category as competitions catering for veteran shootors (regardless of discipline). Considering I only took up the sport of shooting at age 65, finding age relevant competitions has become a real interest for me. Not that I do not enjoy competing against younger shooters, and performing well, but I do believe there are good reasons to engender 45+ events. Of course these type of events do not happen by themselves. They must be nurtured and supported. So I have taken this up as a challenge for 10M pistol and rifle events. With a little bit of snooping around I have found at least 5 open events in Europe catering apecifically for Veteran shooters. Soon there may be a 6th such event as I am in talks with a very nice shooting venue in Poland to host a yearly event. To start, I am hooeful that we can cater for the two 10M disciplines (pistol and rifle). It will be held close to a major city with many historical places to visit, so it may provide a combination holiday/shooting opportunity.

The same goes for 50M prone shooting. I am sure that if enough research is done that one could find and promote venues for this discipline as well. It need not be under the umbrella of either the IOC or the ISSF. What it does need is someone to take up the challenge, and not simply wait for someone else to do it.

andrewp wrote:They have added surfing, skateboarding, karate, softball and climbing to Tokyo. This results in about 20 new events and 500 more athletes.

Surfing, skateboarding, climbing, BMX, mountain biking. Did Redbull purchase the Olympics while we weren't looking?

SlartyBartFast wrote:

methosb wrote:If they remove it from the world cups as well this will be the death of smallbore rifle. People don't just go straight into 3P or can afford to, they start with Air and prone and that sometimes seeds into 3P. No prone means no 3P.

Amazingly, all the new sports added to the Olympic Games have survived and flourished just fine without being in the games.

Many, many, other sports survive and flourish without being in the Olympic Games.

No sport needs the Olympic Games to survive.

Not being in the OG doesn't eliminate prone training or competitions or proficiency badges or any other program at the local level.

I would say similar about World Cup competitions. World cup competitions happen because grass root competition is widespread and popular. Not necessarily the other way around.

I think the activities being introduced in 2020 for the vast majority of participants meet the definition of hobby, not sport. Hobbies are fun leisure activities with few boundaries - easy to take up and practice and so bound to flourish. The definition of sport is an activity involving physical exertion and/or skill in which an individual or team competes against others under a set of rules for entertainment. Competing in an Olympic sport against others under strict rules was one of the major attractions (for me at least) when making the decision to take up prone just a few years ago.

The problem will be difficulty in attracting new shooters to smallbore. They may prefer to take up a discipline that is part of the olympics, or maybe one that is more exciting/gratifying like silhouette, full-bore, etc. Prone feeds through to air rifle and 3P. Can't imagine any club running a come n try event for 3P. Ongoing funding will likely also be affected which may affect activities at a grassroots level such as training sessions, large competitions etc.

I used to love doing wheelies on my BMX when I was a kid - maybe I should've kept hold of it, practiced in the back yard and i'd be an Olympic athlete in 2020.

If the recommendation of the ISSF Ad-Hoc committee is implemented in 2020. They would be "replacing" a shooting event. Not reducing the number of shooting events in the Olympics.

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Link above in this thread has the ISSF release:
http://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=2713

The short version:
ISSF Ad-Hoc Committee recommends replacing the Double Trap Men event with a Trap Mixed Gender Team event, the 50m Rifle Prone Men event with a 10m Air Rifle Mixed Gender Team event and the 50m Pistol Men event with a 10m Air Pistol Mixed Gender Team event.
=================

Some info from the article...
The ISSF Ad-Hoc Committee, meeting in Munich, Germany, released today its recommendations to establish gender equality in the Olympic Program. These recommendations are in response to the requirements of the International Olympic Committee’s Agenda 2020. The IOC is now working with International Federations “to achieve 50 per cent female participation in the Olympic Games and to stimulate women’s participation and involvement in sport by creating more participation opportunities at the Olympic Games” by Tokyo 2020. The IOC is also encouraging “the inclusion of mixed-gender team events,”– consisting in one male and one female athlete competing for the same nation.

Shooting currently has nine men´s events and six women’s events on the Olympic program so major change is necessary. In order to respond to these challenges, ISSF President Olegario Vazquez Raña – with ISSF Executive Committee and ISSF Administrative Council approval – appointed a special “Ad-hoc” Committee composed of ISSF leaders to prepare recommendations to achieve gender equality in Shooting. Secretary General Franz Schreiber chairs the Committee, which includes ISSF Vice-Presidents Gary Anderson, Wang Yifu and Vladimir Lisin, as well as representatives of athletes and coaches, and other discipline experts.

The first decision of the Ad-Hoc Committee was to preserve discipline parity and retain 15 Olympic shooting events – 5 Rifle, 5 Pistol, 5 Shotgun. Each of the three disciplines currently has three men’s events and two women’s events in the Olympic program. The Committee decided that the best way to achieve gender equality was to convert one men’s event in each discipline to a mixed gender team event. Many different proposals were introduced for the events to be changed, considering factors such as universality, sport presentation, grass-roots development and sustainability. Many mixed gender team events proposals were also evaluated, with specific consideration given to their potential to support the worldwide development of Shooting.

After concluding an exhaustive evaluation process, the ISSF Ad-Hoc Committee recommends replacing the Double Trap Men event with a Trap Mixed Gender Team event, the 50m Rifle Prone Men event with a 10m Air Rifle Mixed Gender Team event and the 50m Pistol Men event with a 10m Air Pistol Mixed Gender Team event. The path to this recommendation involved many difficult, emotional and courageous decisions by coaches, athletes, members of all Section Committees, ISSF leaders and many persons in the shooting community, who tried to act in the best interests of future generations in our sport while emphasizing the priority of keeping Shooting in the Olympic Games.

If they really felt that strongly, and mixed gender was really important to the IOC, then they should have made the bravest decision of all ..... mixed gender all around. 3x40 (yes the poor little girls can hack it), SB Prone, Air Rifle, 50m pistol, RF pistol, AP, Trap, DT, Skeet, and even bring back RT to make participant numbers.

There is not one event, and forgive me if I missed one, that I would say that a female cannot compete directly with males.

Just having that alone will draw more viewers than changing the format of a final.

This is not like swimming, basketball, T&F where strength & size differences have it make sense to separate the sexes .... I really do believe that this sport is one that is "bring 'em all on".

jhmartin wrote:If they really felt that strongly, and mixed gender was really important to the IOC, then they should have made the bravest decision of all ..... mixed gender all around. 3x40 (yes the poor little girls can hack it), SB Prone, Air Rifle, 50m pistol, RF pistol, AP, Trap, DT, Skeet, and even bring back RT to make participant numbers.

There is not one event, and forgive me if I missed one, that I would say that a female cannot compete directly with males.

Just having that alone will draw more viewers than changing the format of a final.

This is not like swimming, basketball, T&F where strength & size differences have it make sense to separate the sexes .... I really do believe that this sport is one that is "bring 'em all on".

Part of the problem is that there are some countries that don't want to see their men out-performed by women and part of the problem is that some people are afraid true coed competition would be unfair in terms of medal count awarded to women.

But there are and have been women who compete head to head with men and beat them in shooting events. The Tomkins and Gallagher women can sure do it in Palma, Long Range Competition and Highpower Competition.

jmdavis wrote:Part of the problem is that there are some countries that don't want to see their men out-performed by women ...

Oh, OH!! ... Boo, Hoo - see me wiping the tears from my eyes. You should have been at NCAA's this past march.

jmdavis wrote: ... and part of the problem is that some people are afraid true coed competition would be unfair in terms of medal count awarded to women.

Well, as I heard the National Rifle Coach say to up & coming Junior shooters ..."Work Harder"

Note: Not picking on you jmdavis .... just on your comments about others ... big smile on my face when I read your post!
And for full disclosure ... I had/have 3 of my own girls that shoot.

jmdavis wrote:... and part of the problem is that some people are afraid true coed competition would be unfair in terms of medal count awarded to women...

Correct, and that's why it won't happen. If each country just picked it's best 2 shooters per event, they wouldn't be 50% female.

What they really want, but won't come right out and say it, is 50% male/female participation and medal count.

Tokyo 2020: ISSF Ad-Hoc Committee releases Shooting program recommendations: http://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=2713
Bindra: “look at the bigger picture, to ensure our strong presence within the Olympic movement”: http://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=2714

It's not yet confirmed but that was their recommendations.

"The Council will make a final decision on the recommendations that the ISSF must submit to the IOC by the end of February 2017. The IOC will make a final decision on the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Program in mid-2017."

We have to fight with all our might against their recommendation before final decision is made!

Sign the petition: https://www.change.org/p/international- ... ic-program

Who was the ad-hoc committee?

SlartyBartFast wrote:

methosb wrote:If they remove it from the world cups as well this will be the death of smallbore rifle. People don't just go straight into 3P or can afford to, they start with Air and prone and that sometimes seeds into 3P. No prone means no 3P.

Amazingly, all the new sports added to the Olympic Games have survived and flourished just fine without being in the games.

Many, many, other sports survive and flourish without being in the Olympic Games.

No sport needs the Olympic Games to survive.

Not being in the OG doesn't eliminate prone training or competitions or proficiency badges or any other program at the local level.

I would say similar about World Cup competitions. World cup competitions happen because grass root competition is widespread and popular. Not necessarily the other way around.

I disagree to a certain extent. If your country is huge and have a huge gun/shooting culture that's true (e.g. UK, Canada, US) but for smaller nations where their sport is also small like mine their country only support Olympic events.

You can't compare non-Olympic sports that flourish without considering whether it's popular by nature or not. E.g. Kickboxing/K-1 is far more popular than Olympic shooting events. Why? Because kickboxing is a spectator sport and ISSF events are not (even with the help of the Olympics). Elimination from the Olympics will make it even worse. Just surviving ain't good enough. If this continues we'll be surviving on crumbs....