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Too simple, add women's prone or add women to Mens Prone which provides mixed event. Prone is something that represents bulk of smallbore fraternity in many if not most countries. Eliminate prone event is a silly idea.

Metookevin wrote:Too simple, add women's prone or add women to Mens Prone which provides mixed event. Prone is something that represents bulk of smallbore fraternity in many if not most countries. Eliminate prone event is a silly idea.

A very good suggestion.
Martin

Can anyone explain what the "challenge systems now being used in IRI and IND" are?

I have also heard a rumor that only mfgr weights are being considered ... no stick ons ... no outside manufacturer?
Is this also a "viewership issue"?

Off the top of my head I can't think of any Olympic sport where men and women compete together. I think shooting makes sense: just make everything a mixed event. If a woman can kick my butt in any sport, why do we limit them to 40 shots in AP and AR? And centerfire v. sport pistol? What's the difference, really?

If you boys aren't careful, the IOC is going to destroy your sport. The ISSF should be dictating to the IOC, not the other way around. For them to even suggest a possibility of using laser rather than bullets tells you where they are coming from.

The need of some people and organizations to have the "Olympic" imprimatur would take a PhD dissertation to cover. For now, know that these corrupt fools in the IOC do not have your best interest at heart and the more you lick their boots the smaller your sport will become.

Ricardo wrote:Off the top of my head I can't think of any Olympic sport where men and women compete together. I think shooting makes sense: just make everything a mixed event. If a woman can kick my butt in any sport, why do we limit them to 40 shots in AP and AR? And centerfire v. sport pistol? What's the difference, really?

They already have. Twice a woman beat or equaled a man in Olympics. All men could do afterwards was to ban women. All events should be mixed.

conradin wrote:

Ricardo wrote: Twice a woman beat or equaled a man in Olympics. All men could do afterwards was to ban women. All events should be mixed.

All events mixed would results in an even more lopsided (in favour of men) gender bias than already exists.

It's all very well to quote 2 instances where women have equalled or beaten men but you obviously haven't looked at the events that are directly comparable (3P, Air Rifle, Air Pistol Trap & Skeet) Men's average score to make final vs women's e.g. Rio WC currently in progress, 6th place in women's trap would only be 33rd in men's trap. Air rifle is much closer (in fact almost the same) but in air pistol the 8th woman would be 25th in men's.

Regards lasers, I do believe lead projectiles are problematic & one day in the long term future they will be dealt with. You could also throw in firearms security, customs & freight, insurance and firearms licensing into that same pot. Would be a sad day though.

j-team wrote:
All events mixed would results in an even more lopsided (in favour of men) gender bias than already exists.

It's all very well to quote 2 instances where women have equaled or beaten men but you obviously haven't looked at the events that are directly comparable (3P, Air Rifle, Air Pistol Trap & Skeet) Men's average score to make final vs women's e.g. Rio WC currently in progress, 6th place in women's trap would only be 33rd in men's trap. Air rifle is much closer (in fact almost the same) but in air pistol the 8th woman would be 25th in men's.

I would suggest giving a minimum 33% quota to one sex if you are really concerned BECAUSE................

If you look at the finals record in pistol and rifle you will notice that in general, women are better than men. 20 shots are pretty good comparison. Zublasing would have beaten Louginets, Sidhu would have beaten Jin, and Yi would have beaten Yan.

The potential Olympic event 10M RT Mix can be directly compared. In 2010 WCH 10RTMIX: 385, 384, 383, 382(10x), 382(8x), 382(5x), 380, 380(5x). 10RT20MIX: 390, 386, 382(9x), 374, 372, 371, 369, 368 (9x). So a potential final would be 5 men and 3 women. Xueyan Li would beat all the men.

The only Olympic program that can be used to compare men and women as close as possible is prone 50m. The only difference is that mens free rifle has an extra 1.5kg for maximum weight limit. In 2014WCH, FR60PR: 632.3, 627.7, 626.9(104.6), 626.9(103.5), 626.2, 625.7, 625.5, 625.3. STR60PR, it was 626.9, 625.4, 624.7(104.5), 624.5(103.8), 624.0(104.1), 623.7(103.0), 623.6(105.2), 623.6(103.0). Beate Gauss would have won a bronze. A potential mixed final of 7 men and 1 woman. If anything, that extra 1.5kg would give the men an advantage. 625.4 (3rd women) would ended up as 8th in men, 624.7 (3rd in women) would be 13th, 624.5 (4th in women) would be 17th, 624.0(5th in women) would be 22nd, 623.7 & 623.6(105.2)(6th & 7th in women) would be 28th, 623.6(103.0) (8th in women) would be 29th. In fact, to make the actual men's qualification you would need to score 618.5, so any of the top 34 women could have knocked the last man out. If we mixed them together, then for the 63 qualifying spot, it would have been 40 men and 23 women with a cut off of 620.1(103.9). Hardly lopsided! The cut off for women was 613.5 (102.1), and only the top 89 men would make that cut.

300 Prone will sadly never be in the Olympics. But it is also the other only remaining ISSF competition that can be indirectly compared. Again everything being equal except men has the extra 1.5kg maximum rifle weight.
In 2010WCH, 300FR60PR: 599(36x), 598, 598, 598, 598, 598, 597(36x), 597 (34x). 300R60PR finished: 599(37x), 597(37x), 597(29x), 597, 596, 596, 595 (34x), 595 (31x 100). If there were a "final", it would have been 6 men and 2 women. Again, men has that 1.5kg weight advantage. Bettina Bucher would have beaten all men. The cutoff for men was 592(28x 98) Debevec for 33 slots, so the top 16 women would make the cut. Mix them together for 33 slots with a cut off of 594 (35x) 24 men and 9 women. There is no cut off for women. Again hardly lopsided.

Here in the US, at least in NCAA rifle, most programs (23 out of 29) are mix, while the remaining 6 are women only. Women frequently out-shoot the men, while shooting a men's program. The current NCAA 3P champion is a woman, as did 2010, 2012, 2013, 2015. In 2014, women finished 3, 4, 5, 7, 8. Woman also won this year in in air rifle, as did 09, 12, 13, 15. 60 shots.
For pistol, the US collegiate free pistol champion is a woman, women finished 1 and 8; Standard pistol, finishing 1, 6 & 7; Air pistol, 1, 2 & 7. The overall runner up is a woman.

If we do not mix it up for the Olympics, then at least be honest and eliminate "women only" programs that were originally designed to discriminate, then have every program split into men and women competition on complete equal terms. Get rid of SP. Return AP60 back to AP40. Eliminate "STR" because nowadays nobody really uses it. Give women that extra 1.5kg and see what will happens. Extra ACCURATE heavy barrel to wipe men out of competition.

.......that it will be MEN who will need that quota someday!

I am not even going to point out the scary thought of Franziska Peer could capable of doing if she decides to go full time on rifle...since moonlighting on rifle has already seen her making it to finals.

Laser for pentathlon is mobility and convenience, to the audience it doesn't make a difference. However, will the same apply to shooting?

If laser is fully adopted then organizers can setup a range anywhere with little cost, equipment would be standarlized, results can be made into interactive hit or miss. It is easy to implement and organize, just one problem no fun.

The fun factor is important in sports, its what attract people to spend time and money, it isn't something people have to do but rather want to do. So why would people want to participate and watch laser shooting when they can go plinking cans in their own backyard? After all there is no more specialized guns and grips, no need for different kinds of pellets, no recoil, not even a hole. It works for penta because it's part of whole, not the only thing.

In addition, all the equipment manufactures won't support the laser sport and will turn their attention to field target shooting, so you will have to convince the next generation athletes that laser is more fun. After all paint ball is a televised sport while laser tag is a game for kids.

Sports need to be challenging and fun for the athletes and spectators, it requires skills to be successful, not to mention the support of the equipment and manufacture community. Shooting like everything else needs to evolve but it should not sacrifice skill and it still need to be fun.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but you will no longer have to read the wind if they are shooting lasers. Correct?

TraLfaz wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong, but you will no longer have to read the wind if they are shooting lasers. Correct?

Correct, as any laser shooting discipline would be conducted indoors so wind is not a factor at all.

They wouldn't need to build a full 50m range for laser shooting. Basically imagine an entire match where all of the participants are using SCATT electronic training systems.

That would be a sad day indeed.

And you wouldn't actually need a range- or lasers. Just a plastic pistol shaped game controller and some accelerometers.

Everything can be done in 10m or less with laser. Completely indoors. No noise. No recoil. As for the shotgun events, a similar training system has already been in existence. So that means shotgun events can be moved to an indoor stadium, at night.
There will be no point of 50m rifle 3P, since 10M will do. No point of 50m rifle prone, since no special equipment will ever be needed. In fact, the idea of a rifle will be pointless, since barrel length makes no difference in accuracy, and ballistic no longer exists. Pistol is no better: 50m pistol is as logical as 10m. The length of a laser pointer is now dictated by the maximum sight radius length the operator can deal with physically. i can imagine the free laser one hand pointer will have a long sight radius made up of an extremely light but rigid material.

I would imagine the competition be: 10m laser pointer shooting one hand, 10m laser pointer shooting two hand 3P, 10m laser pointer shooting one hand 5 targets rapid blink, laser pointer trap, laser pointer skeet.

Maybe for the first time they can have LIVE animal shooting since the 1900 Olympics. You can put laser sensor on pigeons and let them fly. Or on a bull and let it run from one end of the field to another. Even better, have participants wear them, so you finally have "duel pistol" for real. I'll pay to see THAT!

When we start to shoot laser, we will be laughed at and made fun off.

public: So what sport do you play?
pointer: shooting.

public: Ohh! what caliber is your gun?
pointer: well ... actually we use laser.

public: you mean a laser pointer like what I use with play with my cat?
pointer: ... yeah

We can always invite the world to the US nationals where we shoot rimfire, centerfire, and .45 semi auto pistols and revolvers at targets at bother 50 yards and 25 yards.

It seems to me that the goal is to eliminate the hardest and most competitive parts of shooting.

Modified ----

jmdavis wrote:It seems to me that the goal is to eliminate .... shooting.

Switch to laser, may as well switch to an Xbox... and use a plastic laser pointer with built-in gyro stabilizer..

Let esport destroy the ISSF..

BTW, equestrian is done mixed..