TargetTalk

What sort of old standard rifle that is still available for sale out there that can be use for the standard rifle 300m competition? Not interested in the modern expensive stuff, but those used in the 60s to 70s are fine. Need some advice.

Grunig, Tanner, not sure when Keppeler started. You might also find rifles built around US actions.

Be aware that after 40+ years the original barrel may be toast, so you'd have to allow for the cost of replacing the barrel, or accept a rifle with a newer barrel.

You should be aware that if you are only going to shoot the prone event that just about any rifle that meets the rules for international fullbore TR that hasn't got a thumbhole stock is likely to qualify for 300m Standard rifle. CF rifles are pretty much going to have a barrel life of around 5000 rounds, even in .308 win, if you want to group in the 9 ring.

Alan

Alan,

I think ICFRA rules abolished the weight limit a few years ago. Even before this is was 6.5kg, against ISSF 300m Standard limits of 5.5kg. Trigger weight also decreased to .5kg.

But yes, and older GB-NRA target rifle with a 1.5kg trigger would qualify.

Tim S wrote:Grunig, Tanner, not sure when Keppeler started. You might also find rifles built around US actions.

Be aware that after 40+ years the original barrel may be toast, so you'd have to allow for the cost of replacing the barrel, or accept a rifle with a newer barrel.

Those are the expensive brands.

BigAl wrote:CF rifles are pretty much going to have a barrel life of around 5000 rounds, even in .308 win, if you want to group in the 9 ring.

Alan

Isn't standard rifles are essentially military rifles...and military rifles are supposed to be able to go tens of thousands of rounds for reliability purposes? How could anyone afford to shoot in this discipline if the barrel is done after 5000?

conradin wrote:

BigAl wrote:CF rifles are pretty much going to have a barrel life of around 5000 rounds, even in .308 win, if you want to group in the 9 ring.

Alan

Isn't standard rifles are essentially military rifles...and military rifles are supposed to be able to go tens of thousands of rounds for reliability purposes? How could anyone afford to shoot in this discipline if the barrel is done after 5000?

In NRA Highpower competition, 5,000 to 6,000 rounds is considered to be average barrel life for the .308 and .30/06. Compared to the 300m ISSF target, NRA targets are generously sized. Failure mode is throat and muzzle erosion causing an increase in group size.

Acceptable precision on target and reliability are quite different.

conradin wrote:Isn't standard rifles are essentially military rifles...and military rifles are supposed to be able to go tens of thousands of rounds for reliability purposes? How could anyone afford to shoot in this discipline if the barrel is done after 5000?

Yes, the 300m Standard Match was derived from the old UIT Army Rifle Match, but it's not essentially a military rifle. Early rifles were often made from military actions, but with civilian target sights, triggers, and barrels.

Remember that the standards of accuracy expected by the military from a service rifle will be less stringent than those demanded by civilian target shooters. A civilian target shooter wants their rifle to group within the 10-ring (10cm for 300m), the army do not. This degree of accuracy requires an expensive barrel, expensive match ammunition, tight manufacturing tolerances, and probably special bedding. The military want combat accuracy and reliable operation in rain, snow, mud, all with minimal maintenance and with ammunition that could be manufactured anywhere. When US Army personal are competing at Camp Perry, they are often using rifles specially built by armourers.

Some rifles lose accuracy rather sooner than 5,000 rounds. Back in the days that British shooters used .303 rifles, the accepted lifespan for competition shooting was considered to be about 1,000 rounds. The cordite propellant used burned very hot and burnt away the throat quickly. That said one or two GB-NRA fullbore shooters have successfully used 7.62mm barrels with over 10,000 rounds on the clock.

conradin wrote:

BigAl wrote:CF rifles are pretty much going to have a barrel life of around 5000 rounds, even in .308 win, if you want to group in the 9 ring.

Alan

Isn't standard rifles are essentially military rifles...and military rifles are supposed to be able to go tens of thousands of rounds for reliability purposes? How could anyone afford to shoot in this discipline if the barrel is done after 5000?

I don't know about US prices, but here in the UK a new competitive 300m rifle is going to cost you around £2500 - £3500 depending on options, that's $3750 to $5250. The rifle is likely to be in 6mm BR Norma, and factory ammunition is around £1.75 $2.60 per round. That makes a an ammunition cost of around £140/$208, allowing for 60 match shots plus 20 sighters, you might save $20 or so if you can make do with less sighters. It is possible to buy reloaded ammo here, which works out at around £1.00/$1.50 round, even so you are still looking at £80/$120 for a match. Shoot the 3P, but as a 60-40-40 with the prone, and you are looking at maybe shooting 200 rounds for the pair of matches. Shoot both matches as a full course and you're looking at 250+ rounds including sighters, thats about £440/$660 for a weekends shooting just in ammunition assuming you shoot prone one day and the 3P the other. If you set up to reload this ammunition yourself using top quality dies/presses etc then you will save around 20% on ammunition costs, but probably need in the region of £1000 of kit to do so. I believe that the average barrel life for a 6mm BR Norma is around 1500 rounds, and around £800/$1200 to £1000/$1500 for a rebarrel. Both the cost of the reloading equipment and possibly the rebarreling, could be significantly cheaper in the US than here in the UK, as we will often have to spend more in GB pounds for those items, then they cost in US dollars over there.

Given the above costs there are probably no more than one hundred 300m shooters in the UK, and probably only about 25-30% of those are shooting more than occasionally each year. 300m is probably the most expensive form of rifle shooting competition there is, simply because of the round count. Setup costs for are about average, but I cannot think of anything else that will eat through ammunition like shooting 300m. It's simply not a sport you can compete in on a budget.

Alan

Tim S wrote:
Remember that the standards of accuracy expected by the military from a service rifle will be less stringent than those demanded by civilian target shooters.

I've concluded that the US military no longer values rifle marksmanship. It was just announced that the US Marines will adopt as standard the 14.5 inch barrel carbine version of the M16 rifle. They even claim it outshoots the 20" barreled rifle out to 600 meters.

Seems mostly what a rifleman, or rather carbineman, is expected to do is to locate a target, then radio for an artillery or airstrike.