TargetTalk

Lately in Europe shooters are using different brands of rifles than Anschütz, like swiss Bleiker and Grünig with great results.

I would like to know if these two brands are widely used in USA.

Short answer: No

More detailed answer, while there are Bleikers and a handful of G&E showing up in the US compared to "the big three" Anschutz, FWB and Walther they are still relatively uncommon.

Two reasons for this that I see: First up until say 10 years Anschutz had an almost complete lock on the market in the US. There were a few of the other brands around but they were the rarity. Today, Walther especially is developing a strong following and you are seeing more and more of them.

Second, compared to "the big three" Bleiker and G&E are incredibly expensive, at least double the price of an Anschutz or Walther. In the US, quite often it is the parents buying the rifle for their junior shooter and need to weigh in all the other equipment costs in the equation.

Now, this is just my opinion, others may share theirs.

Dude

I have to agree with justadude, I shoot a FWB and am saving for my next rifle but that could be a couple years. Now if the cost came down to within a grand of the Anschutz we would see more Bleiker and G&E smallbore rifles.

There is also the fact that in the USA there is an attitude that if it doesn't say Anschütz on it somewhere it isn't worth the money. I've seen people look at everything from rifles to bipods and turn them away the instant they see a comparable Anschütz product. Doesn't make any sense to me. FWB, Walther, Centra-MEC, etc. make products that are just as good if not better.

ehh, Owning an older FWB 2602 I must say the Quality is Outstanding, a close friend, liked my 2602 so much he ordered the 2700, and we agree the Quality of the stock has gone down hill more cast aluminum vs the older machined aluminum parts. his rifle shoots on par with mine though, his factory barrel shoots as well as mine with its 3 grove Benchmark. With scope I have shot some impressive scores I am most pleased with my 598 (A50) and just two weekends ago I shot a 600 with 55 on the NRA bucket target (A23) again with a scope. This is with unmatch ammunition; at the Eley test range in Texas I have yet to see anything impressive with either rifle. but still good quality rifles.

I would like to apologies for being a bit off topic from the original question, my opinion is no G&E and Bleiker are not widely used but many of the shooters I have talked with would very much like one for themselves, this includes me, I would like a Bleiker and am putting money away for that day. During the next week I will be with a shooter who has one and get some of his thought on the Bleiker.

Bleiker is starting to catch on a little here in the US. I think there may be one US shooter using a Grunig, seem to remember seeing one at Junior Olympics last year. I think there is a Canadian lady shooting one as well. As for the reasons you don't see many, speaking mainly about Bleiker now...

In no particular order:

1) Cost. At double (or more) the cost of the other common guns, many are unsure if they are worth the extra cost, or just simply cannot afford one.

2) Availability. There is no stocking dealer (although I hear that is about to change) and it takes 6 months or more to get one.

3) Accessories / Repair. There is no authorized repair facility in the US with spare parts. No one stocking accessories like extra butt plates, cheekpieces, etc.

4) Not that widely known. We still meet people who ask "what kind of gun is that" and have never seen or heard of one.

We are very pleased with our Bleiker. However, as I have pointed out before on this subject. There have been a lot matches at all levels won with ANS, Walther and FWB, and I'm sure there will be many more.

Very high level shooters like Sergei Martinov and Michael Mcphail still use the classic round 54 Annie's in wood stocks. But look at any Prone world cup, mostly Bleiker's now with a G&E thrown in for taste.

Not sure Sergei Martynov using "....the classic round 54 Annie's in wood stocks" still holds.

svensta wrote:Not sure Sergei Martynov using "....the classic round 54 Annie's in wood stocks" still holds.

Oh, I had no idea be got a Bleiker. Thank you for the correction.

Andre wrote:Very high level shooters like Sergei Martinov and Michael Mcphail still use the classic round 54 Annie's in wood stocks. But look at any Prone world cup, mostly Bleiker's now with a G&E thrown in for taste.

And are the scores getting higher?

I don't think that it's about scores getting higher - if you are in the market for a rifle that's going to be competitive at an international level then you could buy an Anschutz/Walther/Feinwerkbau and hope that the barrel is going to be a good one OR you could buy a Bleiker and be pretty sure that it's going to shoot to the required standard... and Heinrich will fix it if it doesn't. (Which means that it's probably better for those of us who are closer to Switzerland).

I may be wrong but that's my perception.

K.

Andre wrote:

svensta wrote:Not sure Sergei Martynov using "....the classic round 54 Annie's in wood stocks" still holds.

Oh, I had no idea be got a Bleiker. Thank you for the correction.

I don't know what his go-to gun is at this point but at Rocky Mountains last month he was shooting a round action Anschutz in a G&E stock.

Justin Tracy

I don't know what his go-to gun is at this point but at Rocky Mountains last month he was shooting a round action Anschutz in a G&E stock.

Justin Tracy

Here's a pic of him:



Paul

One of the more unique Prone positions I've seen; high knee and face pretty far forward, with his hand low on the pistol grip.

Andre wrote:One of the more unique Prone positions I've seen; high knee and face pretty far forward, with his hand low on the pistol grip.

That's not the half of it. To start with, Martynov's torso is about 45° to the barrel, but his left leg is almost parallel to the gun - this is what allows him to raise his knee so much. On his old 1913 stock he had the buttplate wound out all the way, and the handstop was almost at the tip of the fore-end; given he is only of average/short height, it looks like he's borrowed a much taller man's rifle. This all looks odd when seen properly, but it's actually quite clever. The exaggerated upper body line allows him to reach a long way forwards, which together with the high buttplate reduce recoil movement. Bending at the waist and that high knee add resistance to the recoil (lost by the wide torso), much needed as the buttplate actually sits on his deltiod/bicep (his shoulders are so open that he has the butt offset left to get any contact).

Interestingly other Belarussian shooters shoot from similar, but less extreme prone positions. Some Russian shooters lie very wide, and also have the head well forwards, but don't bend at the hips.

Thanks for all the info.

In Europe weapons Grünig and Bleiker are significantly more expensive than Anschütz, Feinberkwau and Walther but shooters up their scores with the two swiss.
Tolerances of the parts are much smaller and finer adjustments which should influence the accuracy.
Is the traditional swiss precision.

Respect Bleiker I must say that guns mounted Lilja barrels in both .22 and central fire. Great barrels!!!

Resale value. Resale vale. Resale value. And expedience. Annies sell fast and for high prices.

Once Anschutz obtained the lock on the American benchrest and silhouette markets and established itself in the American Lore, her competitors Walther, Bleiker, Gruening et al can't compete on equal terms. Not yet, anyway.

Our junior club recently acquired a pile of new Walther KK300's from a military academy whose small-bore range had been condemned. $3 Grand of rifle for $1200 each. Also a pile of KK100's for $350 each. The rifles are as good as any, but you'll never see that kind of mark-down in an Anschutz. ;)

Great price for the Walther.

The kid on the pic seems to need a smaller jacket.

My 2 cents. In America shooters at all levels above beginner are quicker to cut an under performing barrel off and mount a custom barrel.

I also see he still uses the old butt plate.